Byron Leftwich: Hired

[bucarican]

The lack of appreciation for the stability of this coaching staff on the board is sicking. I love the consistency of this coaching staff these 3 years have been awesome and frankly some of the best as a Bucs fan. Here are some number just because:

From 2019-2021 (Same head coach and Staff)

-Record 31-18

Top 5 offense in all 3 years
Top 8 defense in 2 out of the 3 years

1 Super bowl, 2 playoff appearances and one 1 Division title.

From 2008-2018 (5 different head coaches and various staff changes and MRSA)

-Record 64-112

0 Top 5 offenses
0 Top 8 defenses

0 Super bowls, 0 playoff appearances, 0 Division titles.

[Doctor]

BuT wE nEeD tO cLeAn HoUsE aNd ReBuIlD!

[Cheb]

All the talk of rebuilding is chicken littling, imo.

We have returning Pro Bowler talent all over the roster; Mike Evans, Ali Market, Tristan Wirfs, Shaq Barrett, Devin White, and Antoine Winfield Jr.

We are returning the same coaching staff, which as per Nobody's post above is very accomplished and debatably the best in franchise history.

Sure, quarterback isn't set in stone and yes, the cap is tight right now, but that doesn't mean that the sky is falling.

Reload and get ready to fire next season. Our division is wide fucking open, and I expect that we are the favorites to win it.

Go Bucs.

[MJW]

All the talk of rebuilding is chicken littling, imo.

We have returning Pro Bowler talent all over the roster; Mike Evans, Ali Market, Tristan Wirfs, Shaq Barrett, Devin White, and Antoine Winfield Jr.

We are returning the same coaching staff, which as per Nobody's post above is very accomplished and debatably the best in franchise history.

Sure, quarterback isn't set in stone and yes, the cap is tight right now, but that doesn't mean that the sky is falling.

Reload and get ready to fire next season. Our division is wide fucking open, and I expect that we are the favorites to win it.

Go Bucs.

This is a loaded topic.

REBUILD? I mean, no? "Rebuild" implies dealing off veterans, letting free agents walk, etc. The Saints are about to "rebuild." The Panthers started a "rebuild" two years ago. The Falcons are within 12 months of a major "rebuild," at most.

We're not in that position.

But is that the same thing as acknowledging that we're likely to have an inferior 53 than we did last year, when we didn't win a title with Tom Brady? Because that's true also.

The term "retool" seems more appropriate. Keep the young free agents. Be smart with the short-term money. Draft well. Look at 2024, maybe, as a reasonable target to compete for another Lombardi.

I think that's the correct approach right now.

[Defense5599]

All the talk of rebuilding is chicken littling, imo.

We have returning Pro Bowler talent all over the roster; Mike Evans, Ali Market, Tristan Wirfs, Shaq Barrett, Devin White, and Antoine Winfield Jr.

We are returning the same coaching staff, which as per Nobody's post above is very accomplished and debatably the best in franchise history.

Sure, quarterback isn't set in stone and yes, the cap is tight right now, but that doesn't mean that the sky is falling.

Reload and get ready to fire next season. Our division is wide fucking open, and I expect that we are the favorites to win it.

Go Bucs.

Fact is, this team had a lot of vulnerabilities in 2021.... a LOT. Tom Brady's stellar QB play masked most of them, and we won several games that we would've lost had Jameis or someone else been QBing.

[Doctor]

The thing is every team has its vulnerabilities. We were an unusually stacked team for our SB run. And look who finished second, the previous years SB winner who was loaded with vulnerabilities we clearly exploited. The beauty of American playoffs is that "the best" team doesn't always win, leaving the door for great Eli style storylines- because it's any given Sunday.

We need an answer at QB. No doubt about that. We may have/get one, but we won't know until we're well into the season. But if we can hit on that, I give us as good of a chance as any team in the NFC to get back to the SB.

[Snake]

Gluck Gluck gluck

[CannonFire]

The lack of appreciation for the stability of this coaching staff on the board is sicking. I love the consistency of this coaching staff these 3 years have been awesome and frankly some of the best as a Bucs fan. Here are some number just because:

From 2019-2021 (Same head coach and Staff)

-Record 31-18

Top 5 offense in all 3 years
Top 8 defense in 2 out of the 3 years

1 Super bowl, 2 playoff appearances and one 1 Division title.

From 2008-2018 (5 different head coaches and various staff changes and MRSA)

-Record 64-112

0 Top 5 offenses
0 Top 8 defenses

0 Super bowls, 0 playoff appearances, 0 Division titles.

Top 5 offense year 1: 7-9 record
Non-top 8 defense year 1. Coincidence? Nope.

It's not because we had Winston (and his 30 Int's). Year's 2 and 3, when the winning happened and success was because of Tom Brady running the offense (not Byron Leftwich or Bruce Arians). THAT'S why there's little appreciation for the stability of the coaching staff. When this team trots out Kyle Trask next year and we go 6-11 with the same staff... what will your stance on our coaching staff stability be? How about 7-10 the following year? Or a new veteran QB in 2023 because Arians doesn't like young QB's... and we go 9-8?

While you go through that run with coaching stability, you're going to lose JPP, Suh, Godwin, Fournette, Jensen, Marpet, Gronk, etc. This is a staff that likes veterans, not young players, at key positions. They're not going to draft a winner, they're going to buy it. How'd that work out for the Saints? It got them a winning season in 9 winning seasons in Payton's 16 seasons and 1 ring... 13 years ago. After 16 seasons with slightly better than average success and little to show for it, they're in cap hell and no QB, no TE, a star WR who doesn't want to play there and a RB who will probably have to be traded because he's expensive and the only blue chip player they can move.

Yeah, sign me up for that coaching stability. :/

[CannonFire]

All the talk of rebuilding is chicken littling, imo.

We have returning Pro Bowler talent all over the roster; Mike Evans, Ali Market, Tristan Wirfs, Shaq Barrett, Devin White, and Antoine Winfield Jr.

We are returning the same coaching staff, which as per Nobody's post above is very accomplished and debatably the best in franchise history.

Sure, quarterback isn't set in stone and yes, the cap is tight right now, but that doesn't mean that the sky is falling.

Reload and get ready to fire next season. Our division is wide fucking open, and I expect that we are the favorites to win it.

Go Bucs.

Sorry, that argument doesn't fly. Prior to 2020, Jameis Winston was the best QB in franchise history and we let him walk after his rookie contract without even a whiff of an extension prior to his final season. Basically, this argument is like a the tallest midget in a room calling everyone else "short".

Now, I'm not saying the sky is falling. I think there's plenty of talent on this team. I just don't think this staff and this talent are a recipe for success. I think Tom Brady was THE reason for the last 2 years, not the coaching staff. We had a better team at the conclusion of 2019 than we do at the perceived start of 2022 (assuming many FA departures), and that team went 7-9.

[Buc2]

All the talk of rebuilding is chicken littling, imo.

We have returning Pro Bowler talent all over the roster; Mike Evans, Ali Market, Tristan Wirfs, Shaq Barrett, Devin White, and Antoine Winfield Jr.

We are returning the same coaching staff, which as per Nobody's post above is very accomplished and debatably the best in franchise history.

Sure, quarterback isn't set in stone and yes, the cap is tight right now, but that doesn't mean that the sky is falling.

Reload and get ready to fire next season. Our division is wide fucking open, and I expect that we are the favorites to win it.

Go Bucs.

This is a loaded topic.

REBUILD? I mean, no? "Rebuild" implies dealing off veterans, letting free agents walk, etc. The Saints are about to "rebuild." The Panthers started a "rebuild" two years ago. The Falcons are within 12 months of a major "rebuild," at most.

We're not in that position.

But is that the same thing as acknowledging that we're likely to have an inferior 53 than we did last year, when we didn't win a title with Tom Brady? Because that's true also.

The term "retool" seems more appropriate. Keep the young free agents. Be smart with the short-term money. Draft well. Look at 2024, maybe, as a reasonable target to compete for another Lombardi.

I think that's the correct approach right now.

I was going to suggest we're in a reload position, but your term, retool, seems much more appropriate language. We're nowhere near having to do a rebuild even if we were to change HC's. Especially if the new HC was an internal hire that keeps most of the current staff.

[Doctor]

Top 5 offense year 1: 7-9 record
Non-top 8 defense year 1. Coincidence? Nope.

It's not because we had Winston (and his 30 Int's). Year's 2 and 3, when the winning happened and success was because of Tom Brady running the offense (not Byron Leftwich or Bruce Arians). THAT'S why there's little appreciation for the stability of the coaching staff.

Wow and I thought forever damning Josh McDaniels as a HC for only 2 years in Denver was harsh. We out here damning a two time Coach of the Year for one 7-9 season on his first year back.... with 30 INTs.

[Nobody]

2007: 10
2008: 21
2009: 7
2010: 5
2011: 6
2012: 18
2013: 20
2014: 23
2015: 4
2016: 22
2017: 29

Thank you. So 5 out of 11 years are top 10. I was curious if he normally had a horrible offensive according to DVOA. This is a flip of the coin within his system before Brady.

5 * top 10 finishes
1 time a little south of average
5 * bottom 10 finishes

So pretty much a bimodal distribution where the peaks correlate to elite QB play and not elite QB play.

What kind of QB play are we expecting next year?

Survey says?

Not elite.

Therefore, expect offensive DVOA to struggle accordingly and expect record to be reflective of that.

If we resign CD3, White plays much/much/much better, we have some kind of plan for iDL (Gholston/Suh), we have relative health? 7-8 wins.

If the defense doesn’t show up and stay healthy? 4-6 wins.

[Snake]

No way man, the coaches are elite!!

[Nobody]

Ideally (IMO), Trask plays next year (year 2 for him) and his play is pleasantly stable. I’m not looking for world-beater play…just not freaking volatility, high amplitude play where you have no idea what you’ve got going into his year 3.

Win 7 games, stack year 2 Trask in a playoff-competitive 2023 with more Big Time Throws and same stable play as his “rookie not rookie” season. Now, in his contract year of 2024 we’re confident what we have and we can extend him. We’re stable and confident at the QB position for 7 years.

Now I’m neither sure nor confident he’s that guy (his ceiling and floor are both murky)…but you have_to_know what you’ve got by his contract year. If he doesn’t play next year it’s impossible to know what we’ll have by his contract year and then we’re either (a) swinging in the breeze or (b) apt to be fooled by small sample size (and make a bad decision).

We aren’t competing with Gabbert. It’s not going to happen. He is not only not elite…he’s not even average. Have folks actually watched his play? Watched his tape? Looked into his metrics? Garapolo would net us possible Division title contention at best with 50/50 of being stuck in NFL hell (8-9ish worthless wins with zero Super Bowl aspirations) and assured QB Limbo (again…NFL hell).

If you don’t have a plan at QB you better have an all world defense/run game + STs + an OC who can make miracles happen schematically and play-calling wise. We are not the 49ers (who, incidentally, at least have the pretense of a plan at QB).

Rip the bandaid off. There is no elite QB coming to rescue this offense because the Patriots are historically foolish and prideful personnel-wise (yet historically good coaching-wise). Plan for 2023 and beyond by making the right decisions for 2022.

[Buc2]

Hard to argue with that logic. Pay the fucking Piper now or reap what you sow later if you don't and you're wrong.

[CannonFire]

Top 5 offense year 1: 7-9 record
Non-top 8 defense year 1. Coincidence? Nope.

It's not because we had Winston (and his 30 Int's). Year's 2 and 3, when the winning happened and success was because of Tom Brady running the offense (not Byron Leftwich or Bruce Arians). THAT'S why there's little appreciation for the stability of the coaching staff.

Wow and I thought forever damning Josh McDaniels as a HC for only 2 years in Denver was harsh. We out here damning a two time Coach of the Year for one 7-9 season on his first year back.... with 30 INTs.

No, it's simply seeing the results on the field. With Winston, this team was bad. With Brady, it was great. It's not a coincidence. Brady made the team what it was, not the coaching.

[CannonFire]

Ideally (IMO), Trask plays next year (year 2 for him) and his play is pleasantly stable. I’m not looking for world-beater play…just not freaking volatility, high amplitude play where you have no idea what you’ve got going into his year 3.

Win 7 games, stack year 2 Trask in a playoff-competitive 2023 with more Big Time Throws and same stable play as his “rookie not rookie” season. Now, in his contract year of 2024 we’re confident what we have and we can extend him. We’re stable and confident at the QB position for 7 years.

Now I’m neither sure nor confident he’s that guy (his ceiling and floor are both murky)…but you have_to_know what you’ve got by his contract year. If he doesn’t play next year it’s impossible to know what we’ll have by his contract year and then we’re either (a) swinging in the breeze or (b) apt to be fooled by small sample size (and make a bad decision).

We aren’t competing with Gabbert. It’s not going to happen. He is not only not elite…he’s not even average. Have folks actually watched his play? Watched his tape? Looked into his metrics? Garapolo would net us possible Division title contention at best with 50/50 of being stuck in NFL hell (8-9ish worthless wins with zero Super Bowl aspirations) and assured QB Limbo (again…NFL hell).

If you don’t have a plan at QB you better have an all world defense/run game + STs + an OC who can make miracles happen schematically and play-calling wise. We are not the 49ers (who, incidentally, at least have the pretense of a plan at QB).

Rip the bandaid off. There is no elite QB coming to rescue this offense because the Patriots are historically foolish and prideful personnel-wise (yet historically good coaching-wise). Plan for 2023 and beyond by making the right decisions for 2022.

Arian's M.O. has been to not go with young/raw QB's. He like veterans. Odds are, the Bucs look to find a veteran and not play Trask. This was a big concern of mine last year when they drafted Trask instead of a player that could actually have helped the team. I think they were banking on winning again this year with Brady & Arians retiring, and leaving the team to either Leftwich or Bowles and a young QB. Them losing, I think, kept Arians here. If I were a gambling man, I bet Kyle Trask never sees the field in Tampa while Arians is the HC. I'd wager that they'd bring in someone this year. I won't be shocked at all if our QB next year is either Dalton or Flacco. In their day, both would be perfect fits for this offensive system. Today, ugh, but still... they'd be able to sling it. We won't win, but we'll put up numbers. I don't think the results of 2022 will be much different than 2019.

[mdb1958]

Wasnt Trask 18-5 with his two big years with Florida?

[Phantom]

Khan on Leftwich and candidates

Before the Jaguars hired Doug Pederson as their new head coach, there was word that they were close to hiring Buccaneers offensive coordinator Byron Leftwich.

Leftwich wasn’t hired, obviously, and reports indicated that his desire to see Cardinals exec Adrian Wilson replace Trent Baalke as the team’s General Manager was the reason why things didn’t move forward. During Pederson’s introductory press conference, Jaguars owner Shad Khan denied that any of the team’s candidates told them that they were unwilling to work with the current members of the team’s front office.

[King Bootz]

Ideally (IMO), Trask plays next year (year 2 for him) and his play is pleasantly stable. I’m not looking for world-beater play…just not freaking volatility, high amplitude play where you have no idea what you’ve got going into his year 3.

Win 7 games, stack year 2 Trask in a playoff-competitive 2023 with more Big Time Throws and same stable play as his “rookie not rookie” season. Now, in his contract year of 2024 we’re confident what we have and we can extend him. We’re stable and confident at the QB position for 7 years.

Now I’m neither sure nor confident he’s that guy (his ceiling and floor are both murky)…but you have_to_know what you’ve got by his contract year. If he doesn’t play next year it’s impossible to know what we’ll have by his contract year and then we’re either (a) swinging in the breeze or (b) apt to be fooled by small sample size (and make a bad decision).

We aren’t competing with Gabbert. It’s not going to happen. He is not only not elite…he’s not even average. Have folks actually watched his play? Watched his tape? Looked into his metrics? Garapolo would net us possible Division title contention at best with 50/50 of being stuck in NFL hell (8-9ish worthless wins with zero Super Bowl aspirations) and assured QB Limbo (again…NFL hell).

If you don’t have a plan at QB you better have an all world defense/run game + STs + an OC who can make miracles happen schematically and play-calling wise. We are not the 49ers (who, incidentally, at least have the pretense of a plan at QB).

Rip the bandaid off. There is no elite QB coming to rescue this offense because the Patriots are historically foolish and prideful personnel-wise (yet historically good coaching-wise). Plan for 2023 and beyond by making the right decisions for 2022.

Arian's M.O. has been to not go with young/raw QB's. He like veterans. Odds are, the Bucs look to find a veteran and not play Trask. This was a big concern of mine last year when they drafted Trask instead of a player that could actually have helped the team. I think they were banking on winning again this year with Brady & Arians retiring, and leaving the team to either Leftwich or Bowles and a young QB. Them losing, I think, kept Arians here. If I were a gambling man, I bet Kyle Trask never sees the field in Tampa while Arians is the HC. I'd wager that they'd bring in someone this year. I won't be shocked at all if our QB next year is either Dalton or Flacco. In their day, both would be perfect fits for this offensive system. Today, ugh, but still... they'd be able to sling it. We won't win, but we'll put up numbers. I don't think the results of 2022 will be much different than 2019.

I won’t even get into your hypothesis about what the Bucs plans were because it sounds ridiculous. But I think you’re missing a ton of context here.

Arians had no issues working with youngsters like Peyton Manning, Tim Couch, Ben Roethlisberger, and Andrew Luck, and Jameis Winston.

When he went to the Cardinals in 2013, their QB room consisted of Kevin Kolb, Ryan Lindley, and John Skelton. They needed a starter. The draft in 2013 had an all time bad QB class. Carson Palmer was a good pickup at that time and he was BAs QB his entire time in Arizona.

2019 when he came here, Winston was the guy and proceeds to throw 30 picks. He was also a FA.

Brady became available, thus we went with him.

So to just blindly say “he likes Veterans” needs to come with context. If BA had a talented young QB to work with, I’m sure he’d had no issues with him as his starter.

[Doctor]

I don't know why fans insist on assigning arbitrary biases to coaches. Could it be that it has nothing to do with "not liking young players" and that despite how young athleticism and talent has the spotlight there may still be something to be said for experience?

QBing is a craft. And while young hotshots come and go, generally those with more time in outdo those with less time. Especially when getting through any learning curve. Despite some odd and vague narrative of Brady being a "system" guy in NE, the pats actually ran through several different offenses during Brady's time there. His insane experience with just football itself and the QB craft is what let him to devour the Arians learning curve in half the time. And put up some of his best numbers ever in his final years.

If Trask can beat out the other QBs we bring in, then the job is his. If not, it won't be. That's how it should be. No "liking old/hating young" bs.

[Snake]

If rookie Trask couldn’t beat out horrible Gabbert for the backup job, he should be renamed Trash.

The fact is, he was treated like a rookie who couldn’t contribute because Arians, like most coaches, prefers veterans.

[Doctor]

Again, no respect for experience.

You would seriously rather count on a rookie with poor mechanics in a pinch than a veteran whose been in the system for years? And if he's not good enough outdo him out of sheer talent well then he's trash?

You guys are too funny. Let the guy play out his career before you write it for him, jeez.

[Snake]

Gabbert career
13-35 record
50 TD/47 INTs

He failed about the same rate during his time in Arians’s “system.”

Yeah, I would’ve preferred to see the unknown honestly, in an injury situation. Trask was a five year college player. It’s not like he’s a redshirt sophomore.

[Nobody]

Who is Blaine Gabbert? Who is Blaine Gabbert, specifically, in this Arians' offense?

2017 we got a peak. They had one of the one of the best defenses in the NFL to carry him; #3 DVOA.

He had 5 starts that year. He went 2-3. He had an utterly horrific 34 QBR and difficult-to-comprehend 11.49 % Sack % (Brady, by contrast had an incredible 3.1 % with considerably lower Time to Throw than Gabbert in his 5 games; 2.6 to 2.34). If qualifying snaps that year, he would be # 10 QB in the NFL in Responsibility for Pressure. If qualifying snaps that year, he would be the #1 QB in Turnover Worthy Play %. He went a combined 33/67 for 367 yards combined, w/ 13 Sacks, 3 Fumbles, and 1 Int against Tennesse (23 DVOA Defense) and Washington (12 DVOA Defense).

This is who he is. He doesn't process well. He doesn't process quickly. He holds the ball when it should be out which turns into pressure, which sometimes turns into Sacks, which sometimes turns into Strip Sacks, which sometimes turns into Picks. Expect inaccurate throws in key situations, some of which are wildly off target and lead to tip drill PIcks. Expect an abundance of meek checkdowns (his Air Yards Per Attempt in this downfield offense is a crazy low 5.5...Brady, by contrast, was 7.9...). His tape is littered with examples of this.

If he starts next year, expect a titanic regression for Donovan Smith. Expect Hainsey or Stinnie (depending upon whichever iOL we turn over) to struggle because of Gabbert. Expect the defense to regress (and especially so if we don't resign CD3) because they'll be on the field a hell of a lot more often and much more often in bad situations.

If Gabbert starts next year, suddenly ascends, and delivers this team, it will profoundly defy every individual piece of evidence to date and the robust network of evidence to date. Predicting his ascension and this team's deliverance by his hand is Old Testament type prophecy or Monty Python type satire.

[kaimaru]

I won’t even get into your hypothesis about what the Bucs plans were because it sounds ridiculous. But I think you’re missing a ton of context here.

Arians had no issues working with youngsters like Peyton Manning, Tim Couch, Ben Roethlisberger, and Andrew Luck, and Jameis Winston.

So to just blindly say “he likes Veterans” needs to come with context. If BA had a talented young QB to work with, I’m sure he’d had no issues with him as his starter.

Well, since Licht and Arians have come out and said they are looking for a veteran QB is the reason this is even being discussed. They feel their Super Bowl window is open and looking for the best QB. There are reports coming out that they are interested in Deshaun Watson. He is young. Also that they were going to talk to Seattle to see if Wilson is available. There is also rumors that Brady may be coming back sooner than later. These are all rumors, but it seems they don't want to roll with Trask yet. They obviously would prefer an upgrade over Gabbert. Who they are actually targeting who knows for certain at this point.

[King Bootz]

I won’t even get into your hypothesis about what the Bucs plans were because it sounds ridiculous. But I think you’re missing a ton of context here.

Arians had no issues working with youngsters like Peyton Manning, Tim Couch, Ben Roethlisberger, and Andrew Luck, and Jameis Winston.

So to just blindly say “he likes Veterans” needs to come with context. If BA had a talented young QB to work with, I’m sure he’d had no issues with him as his starter.

Well, since Licht and Arians have come out and said they are looking for a veteran QB is the reason this is even being discussed. They feel their Super Bowl window is open and looking for the best QB. There are reports coming out that they are interested in Deshaun Watson. He is young. Also that they were going to talk to Seattle to see if Wilson is available. There is also rumors that Brady may be coming back sooner than later. These are all rumors, but it seems they don't want to roll with Trask yet. They obviously would prefer an upgrade over Gabbert. Who they are actually targeting who knows for certain at this point.

If we acquire Wilson or Watson, there is no "yet" when it comes to Trask. Both are very expensive. Wilson has 2 years left on his deal. Watson has 4. Trask would be the highly drafted backup that's gone after the 2024 season.

[MJW]

Well, since Licht and Arians have come out and said they are looking for a veteran QB is the reason this is even being discussed. They feel their Super Bowl window is open and looking for the best QB. There are reports coming out that they are interested in Deshaun Watson. He is young. Also that they were going to talk to Seattle to see if Wilson is available. There is also rumors that Brady may be coming back sooner than later. These are all rumors, but it seems they don't want to roll with Trask yet. They obviously would prefer an upgrade over Gabbert. Who they are actually targeting who knows for certain at this point.

If we acquire Wilson or Watson, there is no "yet" when it comes to Trask. Both are very expensive. Wilson has 2 years left on his deal. Watson has 4. Trask would be the highly drafted backup that's gone after the 2024 season.

Yeah, only way this plays out if we get a Big Fish. Trask becomes in a very real way the new Mike Glennon. And having a backup as good as Mike Glennon was a good thing! Sure, we probably don't use #64 on Trask if we'd known about that scenario, but hindsight etc.

[nybf]

5 pages. 3+ weeks. Still not hired. But everyone will rembwr Backside broke this story first.

[BJJ34]

Haven’t seen this from a major source like Rap or Schefter yet… Not believing it until I do.

Reminder I refuse to believe people trying to break stories first. Let the teams announce it. Journalism should be for investigating things going on not “i’m first pay me bitch”.

[Doctor]

Of course, they have come out saying they want to bring in a veteran.
We have only a second-year QB on the roster.

[Patrick McIrish]

While we wait, trivia this morning....

Who is the ONLY QB to have a losing record in Pittsburgh under Tomlin?

[Doctor]

Oh lemmi guess... lemmi guess... lemmi guess...

[Patrick McIrish]

Oh lemmi guess... lemmi guess... lemmi guess...

Thank you for not embarrassing yourself any further. The answer is....

Byron Leftwich 0-1

[Nano]

Goddammit, I was going to say Dennis Dixon.