Welcome Baker Mayfield

[Grahamburn]

Drew didn’t win the Super Bowl until year 4 in New Orleans, but we’re on the right track here.

Interesting comp.

There are of course multiple other factors at play, but Sean Payton > Bowles.

Total Offense (Yards per Game): The Saints ranked in the top 10 in total offense for 14 consecutive seasons from 2006 to 2019, as noted by Jeff Duncan on X. Specific rankings include:

► Show Spoiler

2006: 1st
2007: 4th
2008: 1st
2009: 1st
2010: 6th
2011: 1st
2012: 2nd
2013: 4th
2014: 1st
2015: 2nd
2016: 1st
2017: 2triad 2nd
2018: 8th
2019: 9th

Scoring Offense (Points per Game): The Saints’ scoring rankings were also strong, with only a few seasons outside the top 10:

► Show Spoiler

2006: 5th
2007: 12th
2008: 1st
2009: 1st
2010: 11th
2011: 2nd
2012: 10th
2013: 9th
2014: 8th
2015: 2nd
2016: 4th
2017: 3rd
2018: 3rd
2019: 5th

I posted it right after we signed him. I'd agree on the OC/HC angle. Unfortunately we let our Payton get away to Jacksonville. But, I think there's a precedent for this offense having similar finishes going forward.

[__Chef__]

I posted it right after we signed him. I'd agree on the OC/HC angle. Unfortunately we let our Payton get away to Jacksonville. But, I think there's a precedent for this offense having similar finishes going forward.

I've got hopes that Grizzy can do it. He was part of the club that did it last year. But what separates the best of the best is knowing when and why a play will work, and then knowing what to do when you've been proven wrong.

[Phantom]

The issue is that Grizz isn’t Sean Payton.


Payton>Grizz 100x

[Grahamburn]

I posted it right after we signed him. I'd agree on the OC/HC angle. Unfortunately we let our Payton get away to Jacksonville. But, I think there's a precedent for this offense having similar finishes going forward.

I've got hopes that Grizzy can do it. He was part of the club that did it last year. But what separates the best of the best is knowing when and why a play will work, and then knowing what to do when you've been proven wrong.

This is where Coen was so good. His play sequencing and the way he set up plays and put players in successful positions was super elite upper god tier.

[__Chef__]

The issue is that Grizz isn’t Sean Payton.

Good news is he doesn't have to be.

If we can get our coaches on both sides of the ball to pretend to be the best of the best for 1 year, that's all it will take. We know the likelihood of that is low, but we also know Sean Payton only won 1 SB title despite his consistent record of success on offense and having a HoF QB to work with for over a decade. Ditto HoF Payton Manning, despite being one of the best to ever lace them up, only having won 2 ... tying his record with Eli. And Marino never getting 1 ... Sure, it's more likely you're going to get a touchdown when consistently reaching the redzone than repeatedly going 3 and out, but every once in a while, one will break through.

It only takes 1 lucky year for it all to come together.

[Bootz]

The issue is that Grizz isn’t Sean Payton.


Payton>Grizz 100x

Liam Coen wasn't either.

[__Chef__]

The issue is that Grizz isn’t Sean Payton.


Payton>Grizz 100x

Liam Coen wasn't either.

Time will tell on that, but I'd be surprised if Coen lasts more than 2 years.

[Grahamburn]

Liam Coen wasn't either.

Time will tell on that, but I'd be surprised if Coen lasts more than 2 years.

Head dog is a different animal but he was a badass OC.

[__Chef__]

Time will tell on that, but I'd be surprised if Coen lasts more than 2 years.

Head dog is a different animal but he was a badass OC.

Yes ... yes he was. We'll see if he can continue that success in Jax ... I'm guessing it will be a similar story to Miami.

[Phantom]

@Sooner06 are you still around? Just checking

[Grahamburn]

Mahomes was the 10th pick. The Chiefs traded UP for him. They were picking 27th that year. The goal should be having people in your front office and on your staff that can IDENTIFY and COACH talent!

TANKING for early picks will not bring you a winning culture. Ever.

I'm not arguing that you don't need a badass QB. I am arguing that you absolutely do not have to ditch talented players and lose games to find one. Build your roster with talent. Build your culture with great coaches and great leaders of men. Pounce on the QB when they're available.

Imagine being Jason Licht or Todd Bowles or Bruce Arians and looking Mike Evans, or Ryan Jensen, or Tristan Wirfs, or LaVonte David in the face and telling them to lay it all on the line for a tanked season. Give me a break.

Great point, but Baker Mayfield is not an example of that talent. He's a bum, and bringing him in is a stopgap move by Licht who clearly isn't thinking long term because he knows his job is at stake. We're going to have to suffer in cap hell sooner or later. That's the price you pay for that Super Bowl. Might as well be sooner.

Still a bum?

[Jonny]

Haha, you are bringing receipts I see @Grahamburn. Baker's leadership and selflessness is undeniable and the 30yr old version is a very good face of the franchise. If he can emulate 2024 production, including some heroics of putting his life on the line for a first down, I will hope Lichtman can lock him up for good.

[Grahamburn]

Haha, you are bringing receipts I see @Grahamburn. Baker's leadership and selflessness is undeniable and the 30yr old version is a very good face of the franchise. If he can emulate 2024 production, including some heroics of putting his life on the line for a first down, I will hope Lichtman can lock him up for good.

The first few pages of this thread are an absolute gem!

[Doctor]

I've got hopes that Grizzy can do it. He was part of the club that did it last year. But what separates the best of the best is knowing when and why a play will work, and then knowing what to do when you've been proven wrong.

This is where Coen was so good. His play sequencing and the way he set up plays and put players in successful positions was super elite upper god tier.

While Liam sequencing did set up plays better, it was far from god tier and it's hardly the secret sauce that made the meal. In fact, that's the very mindset the video in the Coaching Hot Seat thread tries to dispell. 3 of 4 secret sauce OCs fail at the next level because sauce can only move the needle so much. No amount of cleverness makes up for a bad OL, QB, etc. And that cleverness backfired plenty during the season (and post season) too.

The roster made the meal.
Player execution made the meal.
The schemes and play designs make the meal.
Grizz leading the league in 3rd down conversion made the meal.
Bryan's 2 and 4 minute drills made the meal.

That makes up 95% of the meal. And Liam absolutely deserves credit on all of those across the board. He does.

But those are all also still here.

[__Chef__]

This is where Coen was so good. His play sequencing and the way he set up plays and put players in successful positions was super elite upper god tier.

While Liam sequencing did set up plays better, it was far from god tier and it's hardly the secret sauce that made the meal. In fact, that's the very mindset the video in the Coaching Hot Seat thread tries to dispell. 3 of 4 secret sauce OCs fail at the next level because sauce can only move the needle so much. No amount of cleverness makes up for a bad OL, QB, etc. And that cleverness backfired plenty during the season (and post season) too.

The roster made the meal.
Player execution made the meal.
The schemes and play designs make the meal.
Grizz leading the league in 3rd down conversion made the meal.
Bryan's 2 and 4 minute drills made the meal.

That makes up 95% of the meal. And Liam absolutely deserves credit on all of those across the board. He does.

But those are all also still here.

I'd say the biggest argument in his favor is what we did in the run game. Yeah, Evans and Godwin are an elite pair and having a good QB getting it to those guys will lead to pass game success ... BUT ... taking what once was a bottom-tier run game (where the HC EXPLICITELY wants a solid run game) but two years in a row falling dead last, and turning it into a top 5 weapon?!? Yeah, a good chunk of that was Bucky, but EVERYONE looked better running the ball last year. Who knows how much of that was Coen's input, but the overall offense clicked when he was here. It sucks part of the ingredient mix is gone, but we hope for the best with Grizzy and see what we can do with a couple more weapons.

[Doctor]

100%

He did try to poach Carberry to be his run game coordinator, so that's a good sign.

[Grahamburn]

The major change was going from Canales to Coen. Even Coen’s games without Evans and Godwin averaged more points than Canales.

Rachaad White’s ypc went from 3.6 and 3.7 his first two years to 4.3 in 2024.

We averaged 20.5 points and 326.6 yards per game in 2023 with Godwin and Evans healthy all year.

2024 we averaged 29.5 points per game and 414.2 yards per game.

That’s not just Bucky and Barton. Those are enormous jumps in offensive production with multiple games lost by our two best weapons.

We went from average to elite. That’s Coen.

If Grizzard can do 85% of that I’d be happy. 25 points and 350 yards per game. Should probably be our expectation.

Coen circa 2024 level production would be a surprise.

[Phantom]

If I were in your shoes, I would lower that expectation.

If Coen is still here, I would have high expectation for a deep playoff run.

[Grahamburn]

If I were in your shoes, I would lower that expectation.

If Coen is still here, I would have high expectation for a deep playoff run.

It is the same conceptually and it’s the same players if not better assuming healthy Godwin + Egbuka.

I’d honestly throw a little money at a vet RB like Nick Chubb too.

[Phantom]

Is Chubb still with the Browns?

[Grahamburn]

Is Chubb still with the Browns?

He’s a free agent.

[Grahamburn]

[Grahamburn]

Imagine we win a Super Bowl with Baker and Chubb. Cleveland on suicide watch.

[Doctor]

We went from average to elite. That’s Coen.

What does that even mean? It was ALL Coen? It was ONLY Coen? It was EXCLUSIVELY Coen?

While I think you are severely dismissing Bucky and Barton as well as the leaps the rest of the line made... and our overall health and continuity (critical)... even if you want to keep it purely coaching... I point to Carberry.

Carberry was the assistant OL coach to Bill Callahan, one of the few true OL geniuses in the league, while running Sean McVays scheme in Washington.

McVay promoted him to OL coach when he poached him to the Rams. LA would win a SB with that line.

Coen met Carberry when he went back to LA to be OC (after previously been WR coach). He then would bring Carberry over with him to Tampa.

All arrows point to Carberry, who directly worked under McVay and Callahan, who is directly teaching technique to players, who installs the weekly game plans, and who is our run game coordinator.

Then add in all the player side factors we dismissed earlier and the run game falling off is not a huge concern of mine.

[Grahamburn]

Then why isn’t Carberry the OC. You’re doing a lot of mental gymnastics to convince yourself it’s business as usual and that Coen wasn’t a catalyst. He was.

It’s a lot of things. Sure. But, Coen was the majority partner in getting them into the elite tier.

Why try to deny that? The NFL already vindicated it.

[Doctor]

Things are the way they are is proof that they are what we think they are is quite the argument.

[Pirate Life]

What does that even mean? It was ALL Coen? It was ONLY Coen? It was EXCLUSIVELY Coen?

While I think you are severely dismissing Bucky and Barton as well as the leaps the rest of the line made... and our overall health and continuity (critical)... even if you want to keep it purely coaching... I point to Carberry.

Carberry was the assistant OL coach to Bill Callahan, one of the few true OL geniuses in the league, while running Sean McVays scheme in Washington.

McVay promoted him to OL coach when he poached him to the Rams. LA would win a SB with that line.

Coen met Carberry when he went back to LA to be OC (after previously been WR coach). He then would bring Carberry over with him to Tampa.

All arrows point to Carberry, who directly worked under McVay and Callahan, who is directly teaching technique to players, who installs the weekly game plans, and who is our run game coordinator.

Then add in all the player side factors we dismissed earlier and the run game falling off is not a huge concern of mine.

Actually, arrows point at Coen more than Carberry. We started off the season as a not much improved running team. When Coen adjusted the playcalling to lean more on gap blocking by the line it opened up the running game tremendously over the zone blocking scheme that was used by Canales and initially by Coen. First three games we averaged 91 yards on the ground and 3.9 per carry, Coen identified that the offense did better in those first three games when they used gap blocking schemes with movement/pulling on the line. After shifting to predominantly gap blocking with some zone mixed in, the running game improved dramatically. Over the next three games while the line settled into their new scheme, they averaged 183 yards per game and 6.4 per carry. Rest of the season the team averaged 156 yards rushing and 5.8 per carry with only 1 game below 100 yards rushing (KC game).

While it's possible it was Carberry or he was involved in the decision, most of the players and other coaches gave Coen the credit for making the adjustments. Something he was very good at last season.

[Grahamburn]

Things are the way they are is proof that they are what we think they are is quite the argument.

Yes.

[Sooner06]

@Sooner06 are you still around? Just checking

First week back, but yeah, i'm here. Took my annual break from all things NFL related. How's things in the world of the Bucs? I did see that TB picked up that 480-lb. monster DL. Are we happy about the outcome of the draft?

[Babeinbucland]

[mdb1958]

In 3 years Mayfield could own all the Bucs passing records.

[Buc2]

In 3 years Mayfield could own all the Bucs passing records.

That just speaks to our general futility at addressing the QB position.

[__Chef__]

In 3 years Mayfield could own all the Bucs passing records.

That just speaks to our general futility at addressing the QB position.

Not really.

I saw a stat recently on Bears QBs ... it wasn't pretty.

[Doctor]

A pope or a 4000 yard passer, Chicago?

[__Chef__]

A pope or a 4000 yard passer, Chicago?

The Pope's ceiling is 3200, at best.