The Official 2023 NFL Draft Thread

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Re: The Official 2023 NFL Draft Thread

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Re: The Official 2023 NFL Draft Thread

Post by MJW »

Doctor wrote: Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:46 am Board: it takes 3+ years to really evaluate a draft class

Also Board: the last two classes were all busts
I don't really think the 3+ years thing is true anymore. It used to be true when football wasn't a full-time job for kids, or when college offenses and NFL offenses were incompatible.

Now? There's a ton of overlap between NFL, College, and even Prep offenses. High school coaching staffs, which used to be 3 guys, now often have positional coaches working directly with kids on things they used to see for the first time in college or even the pros. Kids are going to elite camps year-round. Most major college staffs have multiple former NFL coaches working with kids. And again, there probably isn't a world of difference between what you see your favorite college team run on Saturday and what you see on Sundays.

In other words, the talent levels still increase, but the concepts and techniques have been practiced since before these kids could shave.

So, I don't think it takes 3+ years anymore. Yes, there are guys who bloom a bit later and there always will be. But those are now they exceptions. If a player still looks lost or overwhelmed by the time his second season ends, the odds are long he's going to go from "utter disappointment" to "great player."

I think it's reasonable to suggest that JTS has a visible ceiling on his abilities. Hainsey's ceiling is probably "useful." Darden, Stuard, and Wilcox are already off the roster. Trask and Britt are still unknowns because they haven't played much, but if Trask doesn't win the job in camp he's probably done in Tampa. And Britt will never be an elite enough athlete to be a standout player from scrimmage.

In other words, the 2021 class probably isn't going down in history as one of the greats.

2022? I agree it's too early.
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Re: The Official 2023 NFL Draft Thread

Post by Doctor »

Signed,

Cooper Kupp
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Re: The Official 2023 NFL Draft Thread

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Bootz wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 7:42 pm
Babeinbucland wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 7:38 pm

Just replicate my winner banner pic - I am sure you can copy and paste it :)
Done! Congrats.
It does look good, doesn't it?

Did you ever read the text really closely? I wrote it just like Babeinbucland predicted it...
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Re: The Official 2023 NFL Draft Thread

Post by Babeinbucland »

Xandtar wrote: Mon May 01, 2023 6:22 pm
Bootz wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 7:42 pm

Done! Congrats.
It does look good, doesn't it?

Did you ever read the text really closely? I wrote it just like Babeinbucland predicted it...
Hahahahaha!!!! Awesome! And thank you again!
I said what I said

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Re: The Official 2023 NFL Draft Thread

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Re: The Official 2023 NFL Draft Thread

Post by Deja Entendu »

Bootz wrote: Sun Apr 30, 2023 12:13 pm
Doctor wrote: Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:46 am Board: it takes 3+ years to really evaluate a draft class

Also Board: the last two classes were all busts
JTS somehow looked worse his sophomore than he did his rookie year. The only thing that changed was he was given a starting job his sophomore year.
He didn’t have Shaq or JPP to take the load off either.

It would have been great for him to elevate and break through, but we can’t act like he wasn’t in a shitty situation last year.
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Re: The Official 2023 NFL Draft Thread

Post by MJW »

Doctor wrote: Sun Apr 30, 2023 4:26 pm Signed,

Cooper Kupp
I have some shocking news for you:

Your "I'm coming up with one or two exceptions as if it disproves what you're saying is the rule" method of debate isn't as clever as you think it is.

And when you do it in response to a well-considered and argued post, it makes you sound like a jackass.

And if you don't think Cooper Kupp looked like a future star his first two years with the Rams, you need to watch more football. He was on pace for 80-1200-12 when he got hurt his second year.

Do better.
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Re: The Official 2023 NFL Draft Thread

Post by MJW »

Deja Entendu wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 12:16 am
Bootz wrote: Sun Apr 30, 2023 12:13 pm

JTS somehow looked worse his sophomore than he did his rookie year. The only thing that changed was he was given a starting job his sophomore year.
He didn’t have Shaq or JPP to take the load off either.

It would have been great for him to elevate and break through, but we can’t act like he wasn’t in a shitty situation last year.
First rounders should elevate shitty situations, not get erased by them. Anybody getting the impression JTS is ever going to be that guy? He sure as heck looks like the AJ Clay for a new generation. Nice player, good dude, destined to play for 4 teams in 5 seasons after his rookie contract is up.
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Re: The Official 2023 NFL Draft Thread

Post by Deja Entendu »

MJW wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 12:28 am
Deja Entendu wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 12:16 am

He didn’t have Shaq or JPP to take the load off either.

It would have been great for him to elevate and break through, but we can’t act like he wasn’t in a shitty situation last year.
First rounders should elevate shitty situations, not get erased by them. Anybody getting the impression JTS is ever going to be that guy? He sure as heck looks like the AJ Clay for a new generation. Nice player, good dude, destined to play for 4 teams in 5 seasons after his rookie contract is up.
I’m not saying it wasn’t a disappointment
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Re: The Official 2023 NFL Draft Thread

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Deja Entendu wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 12:16 am
Bootz wrote: Sun Apr 30, 2023 12:13 pm

JTS somehow looked worse his sophomore than he did his rookie year. The only thing that changed was he was given a starting job his sophomore year.
He didn’t have Shaq or JPP to take the load off either.

It would have been great for him to elevate and break through, but we can’t act like he wasn’t in a shitty situation last year.
WTF?! He's a 1st round pick. We took him so we could replace JPP. He shouldn't have to be coddled. That's why you draft. Help keep costs down and replace older players.

Now as it stands he's a guy that's trending toward not having his 5th year option picked up after this season without some MAJOR improvement.
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Re: The Official 2023 NFL Draft Thread

Post by Doctor »

Draft position is meaningless once the draft is over. This is lesson veteran fans like yourselves should know by now.

I repeat, if William Gholston had the exact same career for us but was a first rounder, some of yall would hate him and worse think yourselves justified in that vitriol. Which says more about you than him.
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Re: The Official 2023 NFL Draft Thread

Post by .IrishHITMAN4rent »

Doctor wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 1:48 am Draft position is meaningless once the draft is over. This is lesson veteran fans like yourselves should know by now.

I repeat, if William Gholston had the exact same career for us but was a first rounder, some of yall would hate him and worse think yourselves justified in that vitriol. Which says more about you than him.
I'm honesty not sure if you're being serious or trolling anymore at this point
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Re: The Official 2023 NFL Draft Thread

Post by Deja Entendu »

Bootz wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 1:39 am
Deja Entendu wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 12:16 am

He didn’t have Shaq or JPP to take the load off either.

It would have been great for him to elevate and break through, but we can’t act like he wasn’t in a shitty situation last year.
WTF?! He's a 1st round pick. We took him so we could replace JPP. He shouldn't have to be coddled. That's why you draft. Help keep costs down and replace older players.

Now as it stands he's a guy that's trending toward not having his 5th year option picked up after this season without some MAJOR improvement.
I was just pointing out that more changed than just him starting. He was brought in to replace JPP and provide another threat opposite Barrett. Losing Barrett definitely had an impact on his performance.

It’s not an excuse — his season was absolutely a disappointment — but it was a factor.
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Re: The Official 2023 NFL Draft Thread

Post by Doctor »

You don't get it. He was a FiRsT rOuNdEr, so that means he can't develop, he can't improve, he can't be a complimentary player. No. He needs to be an all pro starter. Because first round or whatever.
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Re: The Official 2023 NFL Draft Thread

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Here is the thing JTS was the 32nd pick in a week EDGE rushing class. A lot of these players didn't have that last year to develop. How weak? Jaelan Phillips was the first to go at 18, and all I read was maybe he might be good. He played 23 games in the PAC-12 and recorded 9 sacks and 14 TFLs. Every report had him as a developing player. Raw. You don't expect him to replace JPP right away. He clearly isn't ready. A lot of things they complained about like hesitation and running himself out of plays is disheartening to see him still doing after 2 years in this league. I would hope he figures it out this year, hopefully it's still youth and figuring it out. I won't knock him too hard other than him running himself out of plays. Maybe he gets advice from DW. Still stop acting we took him as an elite college EDGE in a stacked year

"Tryon needs more refinement for the NFL, but that is understandable considering he has only one year of playing time. He should get better as he gains experience. That being said, Tryon needs to continue to develop his pass-rushing moves and make them more effective. When Tryon breaks free, he eats up space quickly with his speed and closes well on the quarterback, but getting off blocks better is his biggest point of emphasis for the next level."

"Joe Tryon is a young pass-rusher who has seen relatively few pass-rushing snaps compared to his peers because of his single season of significant playing time. He is bendy for his frame, like a Montez Sweat, Preston Smith or Robert Quinn, but without their first step. The former Husky is fairly raw and hesitates, potentially because of his inexperience, but he has a solid upside if he can get off the ball quicker and become more comfortable at his position."
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Re: The Official 2023 NFL Draft Thread

Post by Doctor »

Good teams develop players and it won't matter later down the road if they had a curve. Bad teams always need instant starters and success because... well they are bad.

If I told you 4 years gets you Rodgers you gonna be mad?
Know how upset Broncos fans were they didn't follow through on Barrett? Or Cards on Reddick?
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Re: The Official 2023 NFL Draft Thread

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I don't know if you were referring to me. I was pointing out he was not considered a Bosa coming out or had the experience. The only thing that worries me is he keeps running himself out of sacks and sometimes hesitates. It could be bad processing, it can be inexperience. Who knows. I am on your side on this Doctor, but I hope it gets resolved this off season.
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Re: The Official 2023 NFL Draft Thread

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At this rate everybody will be signed and then we will start.
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Re: The Official 2023 NFL Draft Thread

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Doctor wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 1:48 am Draft position is meaningless once the draft is over. This is lesson veteran fans like yourselves should know by now.
You're wrong for two reasons -

One, draft position is indicative of upside. I said "indicative." Obviously that's not always true. But it's usually a huge tip-off.

Two, and more importantly, a GM can miss on every 7th rounder of his career and end up in the Hall of Fame. He misses on a few first rounders in rapid succession, he's probably updating his resume. So yeah, those guys are getting longer leashes, etc. And that's before we start talking about the sunk cost fallacy itself.
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Re: The Official 2023 NFL Draft Thread

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Doctor wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 9:55 am You don't get it. He was a FiRsT rOuNdEr, so that means he can't develop, he can't improve, he can't be a complimentary player. No. He needs to be an all pro starter. Because first round or whatever.
If a player hasn't flashed in two healthy years, he probably isn't going to. JTS has not. Yes, exceptions, yes, late bloomers, blah blah blah. Again, we're back to the whole, "On rare occasions, this thing isn't true, so that means it's not a thing at all!" Which is utter nonsense.

JTS is showing few signs of developing and even fewer of the skillset needed to be more than a "nice" player.
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Re: The Official 2023 NFL Draft Thread

Post by Bootz »

Draft positioning or high draft picks do not equate to winning Superbowls. Not even the staunch defender of tanking (@MJW) would argue against this.
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Re: The Official 2023 NFL Draft Thread

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Bootz wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 12:43 am Draft positioning or high draft picks do not equate to winning Superbowls. Not even the staunch defender of tanking (@MJW) would argue against this.
First off, "Tanking" means "Losing On Purpose," and not only am I not a staunch defender of it, I find the idea ridiculous. No NFL team should try to lose on purpose, ever. I hope you're not honestly so obtuse that you don't understand the difference between "investing for the future" and "trying to lose football games."

That said, having a well-run organization that uses it's resources wisely equates with winning Superbowls. You need both halves of that - the well run organization and the resources. But there's only one of those things you can systemically manipulate. Doing so when possible is wise.
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Re: The Official 2023 NFL Draft Thread

Post by Grahamburn »

MJW wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 3:24 am
Bootz wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 12:43 am Draft positioning or high draft picks do not equate to winning Superbowls. Not even the staunch defender of tanking (@MJW) would argue against this.
First off, "Tanking" means "Losing On Purpose," and not only am I not a staunch defender of it, I find the idea ridiculous. No NFL team should try to lose on purpose, ever. I hope you're not honestly so obtuse that you don't understand the difference between "investing for the future" and "trying to lose football games."

That said, having a well-run organization that uses it's resources wisely equates with winning Superbowls. You need both halves of that - the well run organization and the resources. But there's only one of those things you can systemically manipulate. Doing so when possible is wise.
Are you saying they’re not investing for the future? Because, they’re doing exactly that while trying to win a few games along the way.

OR, does investing for the future mean to trade any/all players that have value now that are unlikely to be here in ~3 years? Because, to me, that’s flat out tanking.

You’ve explained before in hypotheticals, but never specifically about the current structure of the roster and/or why you’re so upset about their process this off-season.
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Re: The Official 2023 NFL Draft Thread

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Also, you continue to trash Bowles, and I can agree some of his in game management leaves me scratching my head and the demeanor can be frustrating, BUT we’ve had two free agency periods in a row with him as HC where guys have stayed here (and taken less money).

To me, that says a lot about the man and the respect he commands in the locker room.
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Re: The Official 2023 NFL Draft Thread

Post by Naismith »

The problem the current Bucs have is that doing what's best for the longterm health of the team is the opposite of what's best for the GM and coaches. It's not a win for the team to be competitive and sneak into the playoffs but it does keep the GM and coaches and employed longer. What was best for the team was acquiring as many 2024 assets as possible, like the Cardinals did, and being in a position to get a top QB in that draft.
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Re: The Official 2023 NFL Draft Thread

Post by Central_Buc »

Naismith wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 8:39 am The problem the current Bucs have is that doing what's best for the longterm health of the team is the opposite of what's best for the GM and coaches. It's not a win for the team to be competitive and sneak into the playoffs but it does keep the GM and coaches and employed longer. What was best for the team was acquiring as many 2024 assets as possible, like the Cardinals did, and being in a position to get a top QB in that draft.
I agree with you and something I also wanted to see too. But I also understand it from the Bucs side. Maybe Godwin and Evans want to stay so they are trying to accommodate that, And like @Cheb said we Have 70 million in cap next year. Perhaps maybe we have one run left even if this year ends up mediocre.
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Re: The Official 2023 NFL Draft Thread

Post by Grahamburn »

Naismith wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 8:39 am The problem the current Bucs have is that doing what's best for the longterm health of the team is the opposite of what's best for the GM and coaches. It's not a win for the team to be competitive and sneak into the playoffs but it does keep the GM and coaches and employed longer. What was best for the team was acquiring as many 2024 assets as possible, like the Cardinals did, and being in a position to get a top QB in that draft.
The Cardinals that just tanked for the #1 pick a few years ago? Those Cardinals whose best players are requesting trades to get away from a toxic tanking mindset environment? Them? Brilliant strategy.
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Re: The Official 2023 NFL Draft Thread

Post by Naismith »

The Cardinals clearly, intelligently used this draft to maximize their 2024 standing. The rest of the stuff you said isn’t really relevant to how they handled this year’s draft to set themselves up for the future. And they aren’t the only team with players requesting trades.
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Re: The Official 2023 NFL Draft Thread

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Central_Buc wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 9:21 am I agree with you and something I also wanted to see too. But I also understand it from the Bucs side. Maybe Godwin and Evans want to stay so they are trying to accommodate that, And like @Cheb said we Have 70 million in cap next year. Perhaps maybe we have one run left even if this year ends up mediocre.
I love Mike Evans, but it’s unlikely he’s a high end player when the Bucs are contenders again. I wouldn’t have traded Godwin because I’d want him here for whatever QB option the Bucs eventually pursue.

As far as the money is concerned, that’s obviously great but it doesn’t mean anything without a QB plan in place. They could very well have one that I don’t see but it’s hard to imagine what it is or how they intend to get one.
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Re: The Official 2023 NFL Draft Thread

Post by MJW »

Grahamburn wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 7:59 am Also, you continue to trash Bowles, and I can agree some of his in game management leaves me scratching my head and the demeanor can be frustrating, BUT we’ve had two free agency periods in a row with him as HC where guys have stayed here (and taken less money).

To me, that says a lot about the man and the respect he commands in the locker room.
I don't give a shit whether they love him, hate him, or laugh at him.

I give a shit that he's a lousy coach with a 5 year track record of coaching mediocre, unprepared teams.

The guy was handed arguably the greatest "coaching transition" situation since probably Bill Cowher and Mike Tomlin. He had the greatest quarterback of all time. He was in one of the worst divisions in recent NFL history. And he went sub-.500. This is after posting 3 losing records in 4 years with the Jets.

He's a terrible head coach. The end.
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Re: The Official 2023 NFL Draft Thread

Post by MJW »

Grahamburn wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 7:55 am
MJW wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 3:24 am

First off, "Tanking" means "Losing On Purpose," and not only am I not a staunch defender of it, I find the idea ridiculous. No NFL team should try to lose on purpose, ever. I hope you're not honestly so obtuse that you don't understand the difference between "investing for the future" and "trying to lose football games."

That said, having a well-run organization that uses it's resources wisely equates with winning Superbowls. You need both halves of that - the well run organization and the resources. But there's only one of those things you can systemically manipulate. Doing so when possible is wise.
Are you saying they’re not investing for the future? Because, they’re doing exactly that while trying to win a few games along the way.

OR, does investing for the future mean to trade any/all players that have value now that are unlikely to be here in ~3 years? Because, to me, that’s flat out tanking.

You’ve explained before in hypotheticals, but never specifically about the current structure of the roster and/or why you’re so upset about their process this off-season.
Three answers:

I'm not particularly upset by what they've done this offseason, but what else could they do? There was no money to work with. The two big decisions they had to make - the quarterback and the coach - I think they whiffed on.

To me, if you're not going to win a Superbowl now, you should do what you can to improve your odds when you can. The goal is not to win 7 games instead of 5. If you consider that "tanking," that's your call.

Currently? I hate that we have a coach and front office who know they have no leeway to build anything. Once your people have that mentality, they need to go. I hate that we did nothing to get off the void year hamster wheel. I hate that we're going to waste a year giving reps to Baker Mayfield, who three teams have given up on in the last 14 month.

Those are my opinions, you're welcome to disagree.
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Re: The Official 2023 NFL Draft Thread

Post by Grahamburn »

MJW wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 4:16 pm
Grahamburn wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 7:55 am

Are you saying they’re not investing for the future? Because, they’re doing exactly that while trying to win a few games along the way.

OR, does investing for the future mean to trade any/all players that have value now that are unlikely to be here in ~3 years? Because, to me, that’s flat out tanking.

You’ve explained before in hypotheticals, but never specifically about the current structure of the roster and/or why you’re so upset about their process this off-season.
Three answers:

I'm not particularly upset by what they've done this offseason, but what else could they do? There was no money to work with. The two big decisions they had to make - the quarterback and the coach - I think they whiffed on.

To me, if you're not going to win a Superbowl now, you should do what you can to improve your odds when you can. The goal is not to win 7 games instead of 5. If you consider that "tanking," that's your call.

Currently? I hate that we have a coach and front office who know they have no leeway to build anything. Once your people have that mentality, they need to go. I hate that we did nothing to get off the void year hamster wheel. I hate that we're going to waste a year giving reps to Baker Mayfield, who three teams have given up on in the last 14 month.

Those are my opinions, you're welcome to disagree.
Fair enough. You just seem perpetually upset at what they’re doing and I don’t get why. If you look at the things they’ve done this off-season it’s short term deals only outside of re-signing our own guys, which I agree with.

Mayfield, to me, is a much better option than JG or Carr were. Those would have been awful stop gap hamster wheel options. Also, Trask was the only QB on the roster and you yourself said you hate when guys are given a job they didn’t earn, so they’re making him earn it. Maybe he beats Out Mayfield?

And, it’s better for this staff to have this year than it would have been to try to blow it up and then hope to find a HC and GM that WANT to come here to fix this mess. I’m fine giving Bowles more than a year and maybe even next year if they show some promise.

Anyway, a championship window isn’t created in a one year one off-season vacuum. It takes time. Especially in this situation. Be patient.
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Re: The Official 2023 NFL Draft Thread

Post by mdb1958 »

MJ has this reasoning that you can pay a coach enough to not want to be here.
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Re: The Official 2023 NFL Draft Thread

Post by Miller4Prez64 »

MJW wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 4:10 pm
Grahamburn wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 7:59 am Also, you continue to trash Bowles, and I can agree some of his in game management leaves me scratching my head and the demeanor can be frustrating, BUT we’ve had two free agency periods in a row with him as HC where guys have stayed here (and taken less money).

To me, that says a lot about the man and the respect he commands in the locker room.
I don't give a shit whether they love him, hate him, or laugh at him.

I give a shit that he's a lousy coach with a 5 year track record of coaching mediocre, unprepared teams.

The guy was handed arguably the greatest "coaching transition" situation since probably Bill Cowher and Mike Tomlin. He had the greatest quarterback of all time. He was in one of the worst divisions in recent NFL history. And he went sub-.500. This is after posting 3 losing records in 4 years with the Jets.

He's a terrible head coach. The end.
Players loving the coach means nothing. Players loved Raheem so much they went to Drake concerts together in the offseason. Bowles will be judged on his ability to win games as a HC, not his ability to get players to re-sign. If this were the NBA, that would be a different story though.
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