NFL in hot water again...

[Naismith]

There have been plenty of coaches that never played college football. The idea that you need decades of experience, including playing, to be able to teach a technique is absurd. I could watch a YouTube video on proper tackling technique and explain it 20 minutes later. Of course, as a head coach, I’d just hire qualified people to teach it rather than learn every technique for every position on the field.

[Selmon Rules]

BB isn't a great head coach because he teaches players technique. He is a great coach because he watches film, breaks down what the other team does, and then designs a game plan to defeat that. I don't doubt there are women out there that are fully capable of doing that.

That said, the road to becoming a head coach usually requires one to be a position coach and then coordinator. That is where the roadblock for a woman becoming a head coach is at....

He's also good at roster constitution, knowing how to draft the type of personnel he needs.

None of which requires any playing experience.

My point isn't whether a woman could have the talent required to be a head coach. It's the talent and experience to be a position coach and coordinator that would be lacking in most, if not all, women.

They will not get the opportunity because they lack the experience required to climb the ladder. The gaps between the rings are too great

[Cheb]

There have been plenty of coaches that never played college football. The idea that you need decades of experience, including playing, to be able to teach a technique is absurd. I could watch a YouTube video on proper tackling technique and explain it 20 minutes later. Of course, as a head coach, I’d just hire qualified people to teach it rather than learn every technique for every position on the field.

Most coaches and scouts have played college ball at the very least. The only one who didn't so far as I know was Mike Leech, and he was an outlier so far as I was aware.

[Deja Entendu]

Even if coaching credibility takes a lot longer to establish due to the natural lack of experience, there are a ton of positions that won’t/shouldn’t — nutritional, strength and conditioning, scouting, analytic, personnel, front office, etc.

There should be internships and programs in place for minorities to have opportunities for natural growth in the league. I believe they started one recently to encourage minority former players to get into coaching and front office positions.

Besides being inclusive and opening up the talent pool (which is just good business) it’s another avenue for marketing the brand to a larger audience.

The good ole boy system that’s existed in the league isn’t really any different than other industries. Sure there are nefarious types that exclude based on bigotry, etc… but for the most part (these days at least), it’s about networking and hiring who you know/are connected to your network. When the majority of the lower and mid level positions are occupied by white males, that’s the network for the higher positions as they open up.

Open the network up to a broader diversity of people, and the inclusion will happen organically at a faster rate.

[MJW]

My point was this:

I do not think a female head coach would receive the level of respect required from the locker room to be effective in the job at this point in time. The "never taken a snap" element is part of that, but not remotely all.
I didn't say it was fair.
I didn't say a woman is incapable of doing the same coaching things men do.
I didn't say it wouldn't change.
I DID say the NFL will try to push that change forward well before it can happen organically, and I find that ridiculous. And I said it as a female LEO who frequently sees better female LEOs than me called "bitch" for doing their jobs the same way men do, both from coworkers and from perps.

I honestly think the people out there saying "OF COURSE 53 ALPHA MALES WOULD GIVE A WOMAN THE UPMOST RESPECT!" have no goddamn clue what it's like to be a woman in a position of authority, and they're likely trying to overcompensate for their own biases.

[Deja Entendu]

My point was this:

I do not think a female head coach would receive the level of respect required from the locker room to be effective in the job at this point in time. The "never taken a snap" element is part of that, but not remotely all.
I didn't say it was fair.
I didn't say a woman is incapable of doing the same coaching things men do.
I didn't say it wouldn't change.
I DID say the NFL will try to push that change forward well before it can happen organically, and I find that ridiculous. And I said it as a female LEO who frequently sees better female LEOs than me called "bitch" for doing their jobs the same way men do, both from coworkers and from perps.

I honestly think the people out there saying "OF COURSE 53 ALPHA MALES WOULD GIVE A WOMAN THE UPMOST RESPECT!" have no goddamn clue what it's like to be a woman in a position of authority, and they're likely trying to overcompensate for their own biases.

You’re not wrong about any of that. That’s why you have to set things in place for it to happen organically… and there are absolutely ways that can be fast tracked. Like I said, I don’t think it’s by force feeding women into the coaching ranks now.

Forced hires almost never work. The answer is to give the opportunities to those groups that are under represented to naturally grow into the most qualified candidates. For a lot of jobs (in the league or otherwise), that takes time

[Snake]

There is nepotism, like any business. It’s unavoidable and just sucks.

But generally, the path to the high ranks of football is an arduous one and frankly, soul crushing.

Look at the average nfl veteran coach like the Buccaneers’ own Keith Armstrong. 10 different jobs in 36 years. Started in the college ranks for 7 seasons. Worked his way up. grad assistant, assistant DB coach, ST coordinator, etc. 5 cross country job changes in his first seven years on the job. Before being hired into the NFL. College in many respects is worse, because coaches are working year round with recruiting. Neither level has a life during the season.

Does that mean women can’t do the soul crushing stuff? No. But are we gonna pretend that temperamentally women are far less likely to so?

Armstrong’s career path is very much the norm.

-graduate as a football player from XYZ university.
-get hired as a graduate assistant at your alma mater or at any D1 job that will take you.
-do this for 1-3 years. Make trash money. Sleep on the facility couch. Show you’re willing to put aside everyone and everything to win. Hopefully show a combination of game planning expertise and acumen with teaching a specific unit.
-thrive with each promotion. Prove you can both 1. Motivate 2. Teach young men. 3. Increasingly sacrifice your family time.
- rinse, repeat, and often have nothing to show for it by the end. I knew a WR coach at a major D1 program who lost his job and never got his career footing again. Rode a great HC’s coattails for 15 years…15 years to get to that point. Career over at age 37. Back to high school coaching.

And I should mention that Armstrong’s career has been charmed compared to most. He made it to the NFL in 7 years, most coaches wallow at a D3 school for a decade+. He continued to get NFL jobs despite being part of multiple house cleanings. Many don’t.

Re: experience and coaching
Anyone can watch a YouTube video and read enough Wikipedia pages to appear competent at something. I do it all the time! But teaching granular details about football techniques requires both knowledge and an intuitive understanding that is actually honed from experience.

And would a woman’s experience in a semi-pro football league translate at all? Does blocking a fat 260# woman with no explosion and a vastly different anthropometry compare to blocking a 300# man of steel with orangutan arms and a personality fueled by tren?

***

Graduate assistants are almost always recent football players grads for a few reasons.

1. Proximity. They are around.
2. They have proven they love football because they played in high school and college, and then they’re willing to work in football for almost no money for a time.
3. They probably have a foundational knowledge of the game. Having been around it as a player for years and years.
4. They have relationships with staff already (see #1).

***

I think the mostly likely path for a women likely lies in the front office and macro-level decision making.

***

Re: Belichick.

He watched film with his father since he was a toddler. His father literally wrote the book on football scouting.

He is the coaching equivalent to Tiger Woods. steeped in the game from birth. No real choice, but the exposure coincided with a matching disposition and created the goat coach. He also played in high school and college.

Could Bill have been Bella? Sure. Little Bella watching film with dad.

Let’s say Bella inherited the same obsessive disposition as Bill. Was exposed to the game via dad. Where does the disconnect happen?

When Bella can’t play middle school football like Bill? High school? Does that cause the interest to wane?

When Bella finds herself less drawn to violent/riskier things like most women, compared to men?

When Bella somehow makes it on to an NAIA team as an assistant something-or-other? And players find themselves being told how to do something by someone who has never done it. And most of all, a WOMAN? To a group of masculine competitive types. It’s not impossible, but most aren’t up for that type of confrontation.

So yeah. In the event Bella is born to be a coach, like Pat Summit, and is drawn to a sport she’ll likely never play, that is defined by violence that women almost always shy away from, and she passes through the various filters that separates high level coaches from others, I’m sure she’ll be a GOAT. To the players that give her the time of day….


Unless the league pushes this via mandatory hires or more make-a-wish style hires, I struggle to envision women ever being coaches outside a small minority.

[Deja Entendu]

There are many jobs in the NFL besides players and coaches.

[Snake]

There are many jobs in the NFL besides players and coaches.

Right. Scouting, athletic training, team doctors, accounting, the list does on

the Tampa Bay Rays will hire an Ivy League master’s in mathematics and pay $18,000 a year…for the privilege of working in sports.

The cape cod baseball league will pay an athletic trainer $16 an hour…for the privilege of working in sports.

How many of your female friends are rushing to do that?

[Deja Entendu]

I know a guy who works for an NFL team. He works on the film crew. That position has him working with the scouting department which has opened that door for him, if he were to pursue that, it could in turn open other doors to the FO.

How’d he get there? He was a film student who loves football and he had a chance to do an unpaid internship with an NFL team. A job opened up when he graduated and he took it for next to no pay because he wanted to work in the NFL.

That coaching staff got axed. HC got hired and brought his familiars with him. They brought theirs too. All the way down to the fresh out of college film kid. He moved completely across the country to work for another NFL team. HC got fired and new staff kept him and others on.

He didn’t get the opportunity on merit. It was desire and basically happenstance. He KEPT his job and got new opportunities on merit.

Having programs for minorities to afford them the same opportunities. It’s an easy step towards inclusion.

[Snake]

I love the outliers stories. I really do.

Like the guy who spent an entire year making his own pre-draft breakdown of prospects. It was hundreds of pages. he sent a copy to every team. Think he got a job with the jets because of it.

And yeah. Again, your story touches on the same concepts. Working a lot for no money, no stability, chasing dreams.

[Deja Entendu]

There are many jobs in the NFL besides players and coaches.

Right. Scouting, athletic training, team doctors, accounting, the list does on

the Tampa Bay Rays will hire an Ivy League master’s in mathematics and pay $18,000 a year…for the privilege of working in sports.

The cape cod baseball league will pay an athletic trainer $16 an hour…for the privilege of working in sports.

How many of your female friends are rushing to do that?

Honest question: is your point that all the women that want to work in sports already do, and they’re just under represented because women don’t want to scrap their way up the sports ladder?

[Deja Entendu]

I love the outliers stories. I really do.

Like the guy who spent an entire year making his own pre-draft breakdown of prospects. It was hundreds of pages. he sent a copy to every team. Think he got a job with the jets because of it.

Outlier?

How do you think people on NFL film crews (and bottom rung, lower level jobs… like the examples you just cited) get hired??

[Snake]

Right. Scouting, athletic training, team doctors, accounting, the list does on

the Tampa Bay Rays will hire an Ivy League master’s in mathematics and pay $18,000 a year…for the privilege of working in sports.

The cape cod baseball league will pay an athletic trainer $16 an hour…for the privilege of working in sports.

How many of your female friends are rushing to do that?

Honest question: is your point that all the women that want to work in sports already do, and they’re just under represented because women don’t want to scrap their way up the sports ladder?

Do all of them who want to, do so?

No. But neither do all the men who want to. Outside of a select few, most people in and around sports don’t make shit. Yet, they get thousands of applicants per position.

And yeah, I don’t think it’s going out on a limb to say the number of men who want to work in sports is higher than women.

[Snake]

I love the outliers stories. I really do.

Like the guy who spent an entire year making his own pre-draft breakdown of prospects. It was hundreds of pages. he sent a copy to every team. Think he got a job with the jets because of it.

Outlier?

How do you think people on NFL film crews (and bottom rung, lower level jobs… like the examples you just cited) get hired??

I was referring to a guy having no football background and potentially ending up as an nfl scout.

[Deja Entendu]

I love the outliers stories. I really do.

Like the guy who spent an entire year making his own pre-draft breakdown of prospects. It was hundreds of pages. he sent a copy to every team. Think he got a job with the jets because of it.

And yeah. Again, your story touches on the same concepts. Working a lot for no money, no stability, chasing dreams.

Exactly. I don’t see anyone here saying women or minorities should just be given high paying/key leadership roles based on nothing.

Sure there are some that cry that… but I’d say they’re outliers.

The issues that keep coming up around the league is that they have an inclusion problem. Besides the players it’s dominated by white males. Regardless of anyone’s belief WHY that is, it is true. So…

If that’s accepted as a problem. Then there should be solutions. What I’ve discussed is a potential solution to expand diversity of the talent pool that doesn’t revolve around crowbarred hires.

[Deja Entendu]

Outlier?

How do you think people on NFL film crews (and bottom rung, lower level jobs… like the examples you just cited) get hired??

I was referring to a guy having no football background and potentially ending up as an nfl scout.

He played growing up, but not in college and nothing noteworthy.

There are are a ton of people who love football/sports and don’t have much of an athletic resume to talk about.

Take a look at the GM of the current NFL runner up. Who many lately claim is the best Exec in the league (who could have rightfully been canned two years ago… but I digress). Think he’s the only numbers nerd that happens to love football and wanted to make a career of it?

There are a lot of women fans and athletes that would probably love a job in pro sports. As many as men? No, I’m sure not, but no doubt a ton.

[13F11B]

Oh, god. Not this shit again.

[mdb1958]

NFL under investigation in California, New York for race and gender discrimination
Alexandra E. Petri
Thu, May 4, 2023, 11:00 AM EDT·3 min read

California and New York attorneys general announced Thursday they are beginning an investigation into the National Football League, focusing on claims of workplace discrimination and a hostile environment more than a year after dozens of former female employees disclosed negative experiences working within the organization.


The probe will examine allegations of gender pay disparities, harassment and gender and race discrimination in potential violation of state and federal laws, according to a joint statement released by California Atty. Gen. Rob Bonta and New York Atty. Gen. Letitia James.

The states have subpoenaed the NFL, which has offices in New York and California, for relevant information.

“We have serious concerns about the NFL’s role in creating an extremely hostile and detrimental work environment,” Bonta said. “No company is too big or popular to avoid being held responsible for their actions.”

No employee should suffer in a hostile work environment, James said.

“No matter how powerful or influential, no institution is above the law, and we will ensure the NFL is held accountable,” she said.

Brian McCarthy, chief spokesman for the NFL, called the allegations “entirely inconsistent with the NFL’s values and practices” and said the league offices offer a culture where “employees of all genders, races and backgrounds thrive.”

“The NFL is committed to ensuring all employees of the league are respected, treated fairly, and have equitable pay and access to developmental opportunities,” McCarthy said. “Our policies are intended not only to comply with all applicable laws but to foster a workplace free from harassment, intimidation and discrimination.”

In response to an April 2022 inquiry by James and other state attorneys general, the NFL provided a written response the following month detailing policies and initiatives aimed at improving its culture. A copy of that response was shared with the Los Angeles Times.

The league received no other additional communication from the attorneys general before Thursday’s announcement, McCarthy said. The NFL will cooperate with the investigation, he added.

“We are confident that our pay practices exceed any requirement of the law, and as many organizations do, we regularly take deliberate steps to ensure women and people of color are compensated equitably,” he said. “This includes working with third-party experts to ensure compensation decisions are not impacted by race, ethnicity, or gender, and we are proud of the results of that work.”

The states’ announcement comes more than a year after more than 30 female employees shared their experiences of working at the NFL with the New York Times in a sweeping investigation claiming the organization overlooked them and left them feeling demoralized, despite promises to improve working conditions for women in the league and the overall culture.

The NFL has found itself in legal troubles over the years. One lawsuit filed against the NFL alleged race discrimination targeting a Black female employee and sexual harassment of a female wardrobe stylist. Last month, a former female manager filed an employment discrimination lawsuit in Los Angeles County Superior Court, alleging age, sex and gender discrimination and a hostile work environment.

In 2022, the congressional Committee on Oversight and Reform launched a yearlong inquiry into allegations of workplace misconduct by Washington Commanders owner Dan Snyder, concluding the owner established a “culture of fear” within the team and attempted to interfere with the investigation.

"Despite reports and allegations of abuse perpetrated by both players and male staff, allegations that the NFL has not taken sufficient effective steps to prevent discrimination, harassment and retaliation from occurring in the workplace persist," Bonta and James said in the statement.

This story originally appeared in Los Angeles Times.

Dem Cali and Dem New York - feed the Clewys.

[Doctor]

My point was this:

I do not think a female head coach would receive the level of respect required from the locker room to be effective in the job at this point in time. The "never taken a snap" element is part of that, but not remotely all.
I didn't say it was fair.
I didn't say a woman is incapable of doing the same coaching things men do.
I didn't say it wouldn't change.
I DID say the NFL will try to push that change forward well before it can happen organically, and I find that ridiculous. And I said it as a female LEO who frequently sees better female LEOs than me called "bitch" for doing their jobs the same way men do, both from coworkers and from perps.

I honestly think the people out there saying "OF COURSE 53 ALPHA MALES WOULD GIVE A WOMAN THE UPMOST RESPECT!" have no goddamn clue what it's like to be a woman in a position of authority, and they're likely trying to overcompensate for their own biases.

"It's gonna be difficult and disruptive"... yeah, no shit sherlock. How much respect do you think Jackie Robinson got from teammates at the start? The first black platoon sergeant? First female marine? The reason these people are trailblazers is because they do what isn't easy.

The only way to 100% guarantee that "alpha males" will never respect a woman in a position of leadership is by never having a woman in positional leadership. You get that? Keeping them from it because "it's gonna be hard" is self-perpetuation and reductive. Everything else starts with the first one. Will they instantly get it? No, but if they are good at it, they'll get it from someone, and we'll be at 99.9% and that's how it starts.

"It won't work so don't even try" has been to gatekeeper's go-to attitude. Do better.

[Snake]

There are realities along gender lines. Differences. Why do we pretend everyone is the same?

[Doctor]

Differences or disqualifiers?

[13F11B]

There are realities along gender lines. Differences. Why do we pretend everyone is the same?

There are differences in a great many things. However, our country is founded on equal opportunity. I would like to keep it that way. I hope you would as well.

[Snake]

There are realities along gender lines. Differences. Why do we pretend everyone is the same?

There are differences in a great many things. However, our country is founded on equal opportunity. I would like to keep it that way. I hope you would as well.

There’s quite literally nothing preventing NFL teams from hiring female coaches. Except qualified candidates.

[Doctor]

"There is nothing preventing black QBs except qualified candidates"

-From the people who keep using the word "cerebral"

[Snake]

"There is nothing preventing black QBs except qualified candidates"

-From the people who keep using the word "cerebral"

Who is qualified to coach the granular aspects of football? Who understands and can relate to football players? Who has experience actually playing football? A sport where it’s body-on-body and where actual experience is super important?

Oh right, men.

Nah; men and women are exactly the same.

[Bootz]

Damn I see Mr Aryan brotherhood is still fighting the fight here.

[13F11B]

There are differences in a great many things. However, our country is founded on equal opportunity. I would like to keep it that way. I hope you would as well.

There’s quite literally nothing preventing NFL teams from hiring female coaches. Except qualified candidates.

Awesome. We should expect to see a female head coach in the future then as there are women coaching football now and eventually one will be deemed qualified. There are even two female coaches who won a Super Bowl.

[Doctor]

Absolutely, it was Petzing practice snaps in high school when he was 16 that gives him all that super important experience to OC the Cardinals.

[Buc2]

Damn I see Mr Aryan Mysogignistic brotherhood is still fighting the fight here.

Wrong thread. This argument isn't about white supremacy.

[13F11B]

Absolutely, it was Petzing practice snaps in high school when he was 16 that gives him all that super important experience to OC the Cardinals.

Nah, it was the single rep he took as QB in Pee Wee league.

[Doctor]

Damn I see Mr Aryan Mysogignistic brotherhood is still fighting the fight here.

Wrong thread. This argument isn't about white supremacy.

Bigotry by any other name still smells as sweet.

[Bootz]

Damn I see Mr Aryan Mysogignistic brotherhood is still fighting the fight here.

Wrong thread. This argument isn't about white supremacy.

It's @Snake we're talking about here. All applies.

[Snake]

My nut juggling fan club are all frothed up.

[Buc2]

Wrong thread. This argument isn't about white supremacy.

It's @Snake we're talking about here. All applies.

I don't know. Snake strikes me as more of a traditionalist. Especially when it comes to defining male/female roles in the workplace and elsewhere within society. I don't get a racist vibe from him.