**Official 2023 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Season Thread**

[Pirate Life]

Worst thing about the Winfield snub is that the fan vote had Winfield 9th (5th in the NFC). Baker wasn't in the top ten. Coaches and players voted Baker in.

https://x.com/RapSheet/status/1742617456479179110?s=20

[Doctor]

The Pro Bowl is determined by a combination of votes by fans, coaches and players.

Point is despite the narrative of Bakers demise it looks like he still has plenty of believers.

[Grahamburn]

The Pro Bowl is determined by a combination of votes by fans, coaches and players.

Point is despite the narrative of Bakers demise it looks like he still has plenty of believers.

If you're viewing Baker objectively you have to admit he has played pretty well this season. Factor in the circumstances for this team when the season started and he has definitely exceeded expectations.

For most of us who were "believers" a home playoff game and another division crown was the precipice. One more win and he's there.

[Doctor]

Its just crazy to me how we'd normally kill for a 4k, 30:10 QB and this level of team belief, and now that we have it some want to throw it away because we weren't his first team.

Or worse, we've forgotten defense wins championships and we've become kpop obsessed with getting our own Mahomes or nothing.

[Buc2]

Its just crazy to me how we'd normally kill for a 4k, 30:10 QB and this level of team belief, and now that we have it some want to throw it away because we weren't his first team.

Or worse, we've forgotten defense wins championships and we've become kpop obsessed with getting our own Mahomes or nothing.

I think the biggest issue folks have is that, based on his history, they don't believe Baker will sustain this level of play.

[Snake]

In 2022, Jared Goff produced:

65.1% completions
4,438 yards
29 TDs
7 INTs

He also, had a PFF grade in the low-70s. Like Baker does now. Barely above average. That stat line alone is no longer the stat line for a top 10 QB.

Jared Goff.

[Bootz]

In 2022, Jared Goff produced:

65.1% completions
4,438 yards
29 TDs
7 INTs

He also, had a PFF grade in the low-70s. Like Baker does now. Barely above average. That stat line alone is no longer the stat line for a top 10 QB.

Jared Goff.

So what is the statline for a top 10 QB?

[Snake]

In 2022, Jared Goff produced:

65.1% completions
4,438 yards
29 TDs
7 INTs

He also, had a PFF grade in the low-70s. Like Baker does now. Barely above average. That stat line alone is no longer the stat line for a top 10 QB.

Jared Goff.

So what is the statline for a top 10 QB?

"that stat line alone" is the important part of that series of statements.

Stats without content are worthless. Are they garbage time TDs? Is it an interception thrown on an end-of-game hail mary? how are the other 10 players performing?

Patrick Mahomes's currently grade is 85.5. 27 TDs, 14 INTs. In a vacuum, a worse line than Mayfield. But graded much higher. Why? Context.

When parsing out who is "elite," you need context.

[Backside]

In 2022, Jared Goff produced:

65.1% completions
4,438 yards
29 TDs
7 INTs

He also, had a PFF grade in the low-70s. Like Baker does now. Barely above average. That stat line alone is no longer the stat line for a top 10 QB.

Jared Goff.

I don't know if this is anti or pro Baker/Goff. Goff is pretty good, led the Lions to something they haven't done in my lifetime, and I turn 30 in a few weeks.

Should the Lions be trying to move on from Goff this offseason?

[Bootz]

In 2022, Jared Goff produced:

65.1% completions
4,438 yards
29 TDs
7 INTs

He also, had a PFF grade in the low-70s. Like Baker does now. Barely above average. That stat line alone is no longer the stat line for a top 10 QB.

Jared Goff.

I don't know if this is anti or pro Baker/Goff. Goff is pretty good, led the Lions to something they haven't done in my lifetime, and I turn 30 in a few weeks.

Should the Lions be trying to move on from Goff this offseason?

According to his data and judging "content" yes they should.

[Snake]

In 2022, Jared Goff produced:

65.1% completions
4,438 yards
29 TDs
7 INTs

He also, had a PFF grade in the low-70s. Like Baker does now. Barely above average. That stat line alone is no longer the stat line for a top 10 QB.

Jared Goff.

I don't know if this is anti or pro Baker/Goff. Goff is pretty good, led the Lions to something they haven't done in my lifetime, and I turn 30 in a few weeks.

Should the Lions be trying to move on from Goff this offseason?

Absolutely, if they plan on winning a Super Bowl. He's a good JUGS machine and has great talent around him. but he doesn't elevate those around him and is bad off script. Long history of this.

They don't have a good enough defense to carry him in a playoff battle. I'm prepared to be wrong. but I haven't been wrong yet.

[Backside]

I don't know if this is anti or pro Baker/Goff. Goff is pretty good, led the Lions to something they haven't done in my lifetime, and I turn 30 in a few weeks.

Should the Lions be trying to move on from Goff this offseason?

Absolutely, if they plan on winning a Super Bowl. He's a good JUGS machine and has great talent around him. but he doesn't elevate those around him and is bad off script. Long history of this.

They don't have a good enough defense to carry him in a playoff battle. I'm prepared to be wrong. but I haven't been wrong yet.

Can you just give me a semi realistic offseason scenario that you would recommend to the Lions this offseason at QB? Assuming they are picking at 25+?

You seem to be an enormous fan of the devil you don't know. It is so incredibly rare to get a QB that checks every single box. And even when you do, Mahomes had been mediocre as fuck this year, Herbert has never won a playoff game, etc. Goff has played in a Super Bowl, he won the Lions the division. Drafting some project in the mid rounds is something every team would be well served doing. But to actively try to move off the guy? Have you seen the QB play this season?

[Doctor]

In 2022, Jared Goff produced:

65.1% completions
4,438 yards
29 TDs
7 INTs

He also, had a PFF grade in the low-70s. Like Baker does now. Barely above average. That stat line alone is no longer the stat line for a top 10 QB.

Jared Goff.

I don't know if this is anti or pro Baker/Goff. Goff is pretty good, led the Lions to something they haven't done in my lifetime, and I turn 30 in a few weeks.

Should the Lions be trying to move on from Goff this offseason?

Exactly what I was going to post.

[Bootz]

You seem to be an enormous fan of the devil you don't know.

And that's the problem with trying to debate people with this mindset with @Snake. As Alfred said in the Dark Knight, some men just want to watch the world burn. They don't come with logic, realistic solutions, or even thought provoking hypothetical situations. They simply don't care what happens they just want a move for the sake of it.

[Snake]

Absolutely, if they plan on winning a Super Bowl. He's a good JUGS machine and has great talent around him. but he doesn't elevate those around him and is bad off script. Long history of this.

They don't have a good enough defense to carry him in a playoff battle. I'm prepared to be wrong. but I haven't been wrong yet.

Can you just give me a semi realistic offseason scenario that you would recommend to the Lions this offseason at QB? Assuming they are picking at 25+?

You seem to be an enormous fan of the devil you don't know. It is so incredibly rare to get a QB that checks every single box. And even when you do, Mahomes had been mediocre as fuck this year, Herbert has never won a playoff game, etc. Goff has played in a Super Bowl, he won the Lions the division. Drafting some project in the mid rounds is something every team would be well served doing. But to actively try to move off the guy? Have you seen the QB play this season?

Yes, I actively watched him play as recently as last week. Still making boneheaded decisions. They had a chance to win it late, and some thought they did. But ultimately, Goff is still the same guy. Prone to making bad decisions at the worst possible time. Jimmy Garoppolo without the tan.

It's a deep draft. QB learning curves are as short as ever. Figure it out, or continue to get bounced.

[Doctor]

Absolutely, if they plan on winning a Super Bowl. He's a good JUGS machine and has great talent around him. but he doesn't elevate those around him and is bad off script. Long history of this.

They don't have a good enough defense to carry him in a playoff battle. I'm prepared to be wrong. but I haven't been wrong yet.

Can you just give me a semi realistic offseason scenario that you would recommend to the Lions this offseason at QB? Assuming they are picking at 25+?

You seem to be an enormous fan of the devil you don't know. It is so incredibly rare to get a QB that checks every single box. And even when you do, Mahomes had been mediocre as fuck this year, Herbert has never won a playoff game, etc. Goff has played in a Super Bowl, he won the Lions the division. Drafting some project in the mid rounds is something every team would be well served doing. But to actively try to move off the guy? Have you seen the QB play this season?

This.

Snake is committed to hero dogma. He's fully convinced the only path forward in the modern NFL is with a Lamar or a Mahomes. And that that should be a ruthlessly pursued top priority.

I could not disagree more. Moreover, I believe such zealous pursuits throws away perfectly playable hands. I cannot understand how confidently some dismiss a good season as a fluke with no interests in confirming to see if perhaps they could be wrong. Especially when being wrong means you now have a franchise QB already in your building.

[Bootz]

He just admitted his "semi realistic scenario" for the Lions is "Figure it out or continue to get bounced".

That's code for "I don't know and I don't care, I just don't like that guy".

[Snake]

It's not my job to solve their quarterback PROBLEM. When they lose in the playoffs, it will in large part be attributable to their QB PROBLEM.

Trade for a QB, sign one, draft one.

Either way. Solve your QB PROBLEM, or continue to have a hard ceiling.

[Bootz]

But it's your job to judge and grade who should and shouldn't be a QB for an NFL team....

[Buc2]

It's not my job to solve their quarterback PROBLEM. When they lose in the playoffs, it will in large part be attributable to their QB PROBLEM.

Trade for a QB, sign one, draft one.

Either way. Solve your QB PROBLEM, or continue to have a hard ceiling.

Whether one agrees with you or not, I don't see how what you're saying is so hard for some to grasp.

[Snake]

There's a place for Jared Goff to be an NFL quarterback. Like all professions, there's the top tier guys, near top tier guys, and everyone else.

The issue is, QB performance is one of the largest choke points for a team's ceiling in the NFL. If you don't have a top tier guy, you need to be really good everywhere else. The Lions aren't.

Upgrade QB and go try to win a ring.

[Doctor]

And if this class turns out to be more Rosen-Darnold than Allen-Lamar, what then? What if the next 5 draft classes actually fail to produce any QB at the level you're demanding, it's happened before, what then?

Lions just threw away the current hand they have for what? Fold the next 5 years?

[Snake]

It's not my job to solve their quarterback PROBLEM. When they lose in the playoffs, it will in large part be attributable to their QB PROBLEM.

Trade for a QB, sign one, draft one.

Either way. Solve your QB PROBLEM, or continue to have a hard ceiling.

Whether one agrees with you or not, I don't see how what you're saying is so hard for some to grasp.

You see who I'm dealing with. It's been the same conversation for 15 years.

[Backside]

It's not my job to solve their quarterback PROBLEM. When they lose in the playoffs, it will in large part be attributable to their QB PROBLEM.

Trade for a QB, sign one, draft one.

Either way. Solve your QB PROBLEM, or continue to have a hard ceiling.

Your criteria means there are less than 10 human beings on Earth who can solve this QB PROBLEM, as you describe it, for any team.

Can you agree to that?

[Snake]

And if this class turns out to be more Rosen-Darnold than Allen-Lamar, what then? What if the next 5 draft classes actually fail to produce any QB at the level you're demanding, it's happened before, what then?

Lions just threw away the current hand they have for what? Fold the next 5 years?

No one cares that the Buccaneers made the playoffs in 2007 and lost in the first round.

Goff has a clear track record of established performance and habits. He is who he is. Upgrading from him markedly improves the Lions chances of winning a super bowl. Yes, a downgrade is possible. But they need to take a chance to markedly improve their SB chances. It's a matter of probabilities, ceilings, and floors.

[Snake]

It's not my job to solve their quarterback PROBLEM. When they lose in the playoffs, it will in large part be attributable to their QB PROBLEM.

Trade for a QB, sign one, draft one.

Either way. Solve your QB PROBLEM, or continue to have a hard ceiling.

Your criteria means there are less than 10 human beings on Earth who can solve this QB PROBLEM, as you describe it, for any team.

Can you agree to that?

There's 32 humans on earth who can start for NFL teams. Framing it as "there's 10 humans on earth" is strangely disingenuous tbh.

[Backside]

Your criteria means there are less than 10 human beings on Earth who can solve this QB PROBLEM, as you describe it, for any team.

Can you agree to that?

There's 32 humans on earth who can start for NFL teams. Framing it as "there's 10 humans on earth" is strangely disingenuous tbh.

Uh, is it?

Still leaves 22 teams with an unsolvable problem.

[Snake]

There's 32 humans on earth who can start for NFL teams. Framing it as "there's 10 humans on earth" is strangely disingenuous tbh.

Uh, is it?

Still leaves 22 teams with an unsolvable problem.

Right. And how do teams get their top 10 QBs? Sign, draft, or trade for one.

[Grahamburn]

Absolutely, if they plan on winning a Super Bowl. He's a good JUGS machine and has great talent around him. but he doesn't elevate those around him and is bad off script. Long history of this.

They don't have a good enough defense to carry him in a playoff battle. I'm prepared to be wrong. but I haven't been wrong yet.

Can you just give me a semi realistic offseason scenario that you would recommend to the Lions this offseason at QB? Assuming they are picking at 25+?

You seem to be an enormous fan of the devil you don't know. It is so incredibly rare to get a QB that checks every single box. And even when you do, Mahomes had been mediocre as fuck this year, Herbert has never won a playoff game, etc. Goff has played in a Super Bowl, he won the Lions the division. Drafting some project in the mid rounds is something every team would be well served doing. But to actively try to move off the guy? Have you seen the QB play this season?

I'm not sure there's reason or logic being used when they make comments like "if they plan on winning a Super Bowl." Imagine if real NFL teams operated this way every year at the QB position.

[Snake]

Can you just give me a semi realistic offseason scenario that you would recommend to the Lions this offseason at QB? Assuming they are picking at 25+?

You seem to be an enormous fan of the devil you don't know. It is so incredibly rare to get a QB that checks every single box. And even when you do, Mahomes had been mediocre as fuck this year, Herbert has never won a playoff game, etc. Goff has played in a Super Bowl, he won the Lions the division. Drafting some project in the mid rounds is something every team would be well served doing. But to actively try to move off the guy? Have you seen the QB play this season?

I'm not sure there's reason or logic being used when they make comments like "if they plan on winning a Super Bowl." Imagine if real NFL teams operated this way every year at the QB position.

You're suggesting that conventional wisdom is the "right way" to do things. If that were the case, 3 WR sets would never have become the norm. Most NFL franchises are run horribly. Treated as play things by billionaires.

[Grahamburn]

And if this class turns out to be more Rosen-Darnold than Allen-Lamar, what then? What if the next 5 draft classes actually fail to produce any QB at the level you're demanding, it's happened before, what then?

Lions just threw away the current hand they have for what? Fold the next 5 years?

No one cares that the Buccaneers made the playoffs in 2007 and lost in the first round.

Goff has a clear track record of established performance and habits. He is who he is. Upgrading from him markedly improves the Lions chances of winning a super bowl. Yes, a downgrade is possible. But they need to take a chance to markedly improve their SB chances. It's a matter of probabilities, ceilings, and floors.

Being a distributor of the football and continually making the correct play more often than not is how you win. There is a laundry list of off-script athlete QBs that have never won a thing.

[Backside]

Uh, is it?

Still leaves 22 teams with an unsolvable problem.

Right. And how do teams get their top 10 QBs? Sign, draft, or trade for one.

Okay, but you aren't denying the fact that there is not near enough supply to meet demand.

So for the unlucky 2/3rds of the league with the QB problem your recommendation is to move off above average QB play and swing swing swing until you maybe land one of these guys? And the damage the roster sustains while the grand majority of those picks are wasted be damned?

[acmillis]

I'm anti-Baker. You know what I'm seeing the more I read the pro-Baker responses?

If this franchise wasn't complete shit forever, there'd be a lot less Baker fans.

I'm seeing, "When Freeman was here...When Winston was here..." We're so used to having absolute dogshit at QB, that we're (pro-Baker folks) willing to settle for mediocrity because we think the next QB on this roster will be worse because of our history.

Will you pro-Baker folks please let go of how bad our history at QB has been. Just because we've been absolutely terrible at drafting a franchise QB does not mean we need to settle for middle of the road QB play.
Has Baker had a nice season? Absolutely! Do I think he's capable of doing it again? Based on his history, sure...in about three years. We're getting top level Baker right now, not top level QB, and there is a huuuuuuge difference.

[Grahamburn]

I'm not sure there's reason or logic being used when they make comments like "if they plan on winning a Super Bowl." Imagine if real NFL teams operated this way every year at the QB position.

You're suggesting that conventional wisdom is the "right way" to do things. If that were the case, 3 WR sets would never have become the norm. Most NFL franchises are run horribly. Treated as play things by billionaires.

I'm suggesting it isn't as black and white as some arbitrary question at the beginning of every year... "Can we win the Super Bowl?" Every team says this, but ultimately the goal is to be somewhat competitive week in and week out to keep your fans interested in your product. There's not some losing to winning switch you can flip just because your draft pick trajectory aligns with the perfect QB prospect.

[13F11B]

But it's your job to judge and grade who should and shouldn't be a QB for an NFL team....

Why not? You do that all the time. You are often wrong, but we allow you to have your opinion.