**Official 2023 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Season Thread**

[Snake]

You're suggesting that conventional wisdom is the "right way" to do things. If that were the case, 3 WR sets would never have become the norm. Most NFL franchises are run horribly. Treated as play things by billionaires.

I'm suggesting it isn't as black and white as some arbitrary question at the beginning of every year... "Can we win the Super Bowl?" Every team says this, but ultimately the goal is to be somewhat competitive week in and week out to keep your fans interested in your product. There's not some losing to winning switch you can flip just because your draft pick trajectory aligns with the perfect QB prospect.

I think I’m one of the few people here who have mentioned competitive cycles. Five-year plans, etc. I agree with you. Not every team should go into the year thinking about Super Bowl. However, the lions next season should really be thinking about the Super Bowl and what they need to do to get there. Upgrading quarterback for them is going to be an obvious thing to think about because Jared Goff is going to let them down in the playoffs. It’s him and:or the defense. Probably going to be both. They’re going to trail and he is going to have to step up.

[Grahamburn]

I'm anti-Baker. You know what I'm seeing the more I read the pro-Baker responses?

If this franchise wasn't complete shit forever, there'd be a lot less Baker fans.

I'm seeing, "When Freeman was here...When Winston was here..." We're so used to having absolute dogshit at QB, that we're (pro-Baker folks) willing to settle for mediocrity because we think the next QB on this roster will be worse because of our history.

Will you pro-Baker folks please let go of how bad our history at QB has been. Just because we've been absolutely terrible at drafting a franchise QB does not mean we need to settle for middle of the road QB play.
Has Baker had a nice season? Absolutely! Do I think he's capable of doing it again? Based on his history, sure...in about three years. We're getting top level Baker right now, not top level QB, and there is a huuuuuuge difference.

I don't think I'm pro-Baker so much as I'm pro-understanding that finding competent QB play isn't easy. If anything our QB history has shaped that view.

It's like people are upset at him because he's played so well that we aren't in the running to spend a high pick on a QB replacement. That logic is asinine to me. We have a QB that gives us a chance to win the game very single week without using any draft capital whatsoever. We should be thrilled. :shrug:

[Snake]

I would rather draft to QB every other year for 10 years and watch them bust one after the other, than have a team led by Kirk Cousins. It’s that simple.

Roll the dice. If it’s not working, move on. There’s no need to waste everyone’s time after Jameis Winston prove that he was a piece of shit both on and off the field.

Look at the Cardinals with Josh Rosen and Kyler Murray

[Backside]

I'm anti-Baker. You know what I'm seeing the more I read the pro-Baker responses?

If this franchise wasn't complete shit forever, there'd be a lot less Baker fans.

I'm seeing, "When Freeman was here...When Winston was here..." We're so used to having absolute dogshit at QB, that we're (pro-Baker folks) willing to settle for mediocrity because we think the next QB on this roster will be worse because of our history.

Will you pro-Baker folks please let go of how bad our history at QB has been. Just because we've been absolutely terrible at drafting a franchise QB does not mean we need to settle for middle of the road QB play.
Has Baker had a nice season? Absolutely! Do I think he's capable of doing it again? Based on his history, sure...in about three years. We're getting top level Baker right now, not top level QB, and there is a huuuuuuge difference.

My opinions have nothing at all to do with our previous QB's. I'm not Baker fanatic and up until halfway through the year or so, I was in favor of the best possible draft pick, and starting over with everything including QB and coach.

As things stand now: QB play is down across the league. Bucs have a mediocre at best draft pick. The team has improved over the season and been fun to watch.

It's really just looking at our reality and trying to do the best thing moving forward for the TEAM. I still haven't seen anything indicating we would give Baker 5 years at $35+ million, that is an imaginary fear that people keep bringing up. What the hell is the harm in giving him another year to start with continuity and seeing what happens? Is there some obvious better option? If a QB we like is there around pick #20, I'm all for it. And it would still be nice to have Baker in the building in that scenario.

[Backside]

I would rather draft to QB every other year for 10 years and watch them bust one after the other, than have a team led by Kirk Cousins. It’s that simple.

Roll the dice. If it’s not working, move on. There’s no need to waste everyone’s time after Jameis Winston prove that he was a piece of shit both on and off the field.

Look at the Cardinals with Josh Rosen and Kyler Murray

Are the Cardinals set at QB though? Murray has one playoff game and it was a disaster. His teams have mostly been bad otherwise, though he obviously has crazy talent. Cardinals have a top five pick, would you move on from the QB again and take another if you were them?

[Grahamburn]

I'm suggesting it isn't as black and white as some arbitrary question at the beginning of every year... "Can we win the Super Bowl?" Every team says this, but ultimately the goal is to be somewhat competitive week in and week out to keep your fans interested in your product. There's not some losing to winning switch you can flip just because your draft pick trajectory aligns with the perfect QB prospect.

I think I’m one of the few people here who have mentioned competitive cycles. Five-year plans, etc. I agree with you. Not every team should go into the year thinking about Super Bowl. However, the lions next season should really be thinking about the Super Bowl and what they need to do to get there. Upgrading quarterback for them is going to be an obvious thing to think about because Jared Goff is going to let them down in the playoffs. It’s him and:or the defense. Probably going to be both. They’re going to trail and he is going to have to step up.

It's one thing to say the Lions (or Bucs for that matter) should upgrade at QB and a whole other thing to actually be able to successfully execute it.

[Snake]

I would rather draft to QB every other year for 10 years and watch them bust one after the other, than have a team led by Kirk Cousins. It’s that simple.

Roll the dice. If it’s not working, move on. There’s no need to waste everyone’s time after Jameis Winston prove that he was a piece of shit both on and off the field.

Look at the Cardinals with Josh Rosen and Kyler Murray

Are the Cardinals set at QB though? Murray has one playoff game and it was a disaster. His teams have mostly been bad otherwise, though he obviously has crazy talent. Cardinals have a top five pick, would you move on from the QB again and take another if you were them?

Kyler Murray is a top seven quarterback in the league when he’s healthy. He was paired with an awful roster, and the worst coaching staff in NFL for his first few years. Then he tore his ACL. He still a really great talent.

[Snake]

I think I’m one of the few people here who have mentioned competitive cycles. Five-year plans, etc. I agree with you. Not every team should go into the year thinking about Super Bowl. However, the lions next season should really be thinking about the Super Bowl and what they need to do to get there. Upgrading quarterback for them is going to be an obvious thing to think about because Jared Goff is going to let them down in the playoffs. It’s him and:or the defense. Probably going to be both. They’re going to trail and he is going to have to step up.

It's one thing to say the Lions (or Bucs for that matter) should upgrade at QB and a whole other thing to actually be able to successfully execute it.

And this is why it’s important to execute and to hire people who know what they’re doing. But as Nobody has said many times, only a fraction of NFL leadership is actually special.

[Backside]

Are the Cardinals set at QB though? Murray has one playoff game and it was a disaster. His teams have mostly been bad otherwise, though he obviously has crazy talent. Cardinals have a top five pick, would you move on from the QB again and take another if you were them?

Kyler Murray is a top seven quarterback in the league when he’s healthy. He was paired with an awful roster, and the worst coaching staff in NFL for his first few years. Then he tore his ACL. He still a really great talent.

Agreed.

But also an example how even a team without a QB problem can still be total ass. So it is not a cure-all.

[Snake]

Kyler Murray is a top seven quarterback in the league when he’s healthy. He was paired with an awful roster, and the worst coaching staff in NFL for his first few years. Then he tore his ACL. He still a really great talent.

Agreed.

But also an example how even a team without a QB problem can still be total ass. So it is not a cure-all.

Right. See: 2020 Buccaneers versus Chiefs Super Bowl. It’s one facet/position. It just happens to be the most important one.

[Grahamburn]

It's one thing to say the Lions (or Bucs for that matter) should upgrade at QB and a whole other thing to actually be able to successfully execute it.

And this is why it’s important to execute and to hire people who know what they’re doing. But as Nobody has said many times, only a fraction of NFL leadership is actually special.

You’ve got all the answers, man. Guess I’ll keep my eye on JJ to see how he fares.

[Backside]

Agreed.

But also an example how even a team without a QB problem can still be total ass. So it is not a cure-all.

Right. See: 2020 Buccaneers versus Chiefs Super Bowl. It’s one facet/position. It just happens to be the most important one.

Cardinals could take half a decade to become a playoff regular with Kyler, only to then learn he turns into a pumpkin in those big games. That's a lot of time invested into a team without a QB problem only to end up with a QB problem after all, and nothing else to show for it.

It's not that I don't understand your position. It's that you seem unwilling to acknowledge the downsides that can come with it. While also ignoring the Nick Foles, Joe Flacco, Eli Manning, etc. runs. If Baker or Goff was at QB in that Bucs Superbowl you don't think we dominate still?

The single most important thing a team can do to be successful is have one of these amazing QBs, of which there are very few. No argument there. Since we all agree the Bucs, like many other teams, do not have one of those players at QB. And knowing how incredibly hard it is to acquire one. I think some nuance is a worthwhile addition to the conversation.

[Snake]

And this is why it’s important to execute and to hire people who know what they’re doing. But as Nobody has said many times, only a fraction of NFL leadership is actually special.

You’ve got all the answers, man. Guess I’ll keep my eye on JJ to see how he fares.

Yeah, we will see. I'd love to have access to All-22 college film. From all my research, it's treated like the nuclear codes. More or less impossible to get your hands on unless you're an NFL scout or working for a college program. It's the only way to have a truly educated opinion. So, that sucks.

[Doctor]

It's not my job to solve their quarterback PROBLEM. When they lose in the playoffs, it will in large part be attributable to their QB PROBLEM.

Trade for a QB, sign one, draft one.

Either way. Solve your QB PROBLEM, or continue to have a hard ceiling.

Whether one agrees with you or not, I don't see how what you're saying is so hard for some to grasp.

Because it's rubbish. It takes the true fact that it's hard to win a super bowl and weaponizes it to make a disingenuous claim and declare an empty victory.

You can say "you'll never win a SB with him" about any player and it will be true up until the day they achieve an already difficult life goal. It's the most pointless "I'm right until I'm not" take.

You absolutely CAN win with Goff. Now WILL you win with Goff is another matter. Jimmy G, his other example, was 3 min away from a ring himself.

This notion that QB must be first ballot HoF or bust is poison.

[Doctor]

I think I’m one of the few people here who have mentioned competitive cycles. Five-year plans, etc. I agree with you. Not every team should go into the year thinking about Super Bowl. However, the lions next season should really be thinking about the Super Bowl and what they need to do to get there. Upgrading quarterback for them is going to be an obvious thing to think about because Jared Goff is going to let them down in the playoffs. It’s him and:or the defense. Probably going to be both. They’re going to trail and he is going to have to step up.

It's one thing to say the Lions (or Bucs for that matter) should upgrade at QB and a whole other thing to actually be able to successfully execute it.

Exactly. I remember for years people said we'd never win with D Smith and wanted to move on from him. No plan. Didn't matter who. Anybody but Smith.

Mystery box addiction.

[GreatTimes]

Grahamburn wrote "We have a QB that gives us a chance to win the game very single week without using any draft capital whatsoever. We should be thrilled. :shrug:"
Incorrect, Baker is not a QB that gives the Bucs a chance to win the game every single week. I agree with the last 3 teams that decided to cut Baker loose. They did not believe that Baker gave those teams a chance to win every single week. Baker is at best a mediocre NFL QB.

[Snake]

The moment Jimmy Garoppolo had to go win a game for his team. he couldn't. Watch it, and weep.



0:19 - missed a wide open WR for touch down that would've put them up with 1:30 left.
0:39 - three seconds in a nice pocket. flailing incomplete to prevent a sack.
4:13 - Jimmy throws the game away and totally doesn't see a safety there.

Jimmy G sucks a dick. Any super bowl he wins would be him getting totally carried by an elite defense and the league's best collection of playmakers, or riding the bench for Tom Brady.

[Grahamburn]

Grahamburn wrote "We have a QB that gives us a chance to win the game very single week without using any draft capital whatsoever. We should be thrilled. :shrug:"
Incorrect, Baker is not a QB that gives the Bucs a chance to win the game every single week. I agree with the last 3 teams that decided to cut Baker loose. They did not believe that Baker gave those teams a chance to win every single week. Baker is at best a mediocre NFL QB.

You view mediocre as negative. I view it as being one of the very best in the world at his craft and fully capable of keeping us competitive in every game.

[Snake]

Grahamburn wrote "We have a QB that gives us a chance to win the game very single week without using any draft capital whatsoever. We should be thrilled. :shrug:"
Incorrect, Baker is not a QB that gives the Bucs a chance to win the game every single week. I agree with the last 3 teams that decided to cut Baker loose. They did not believe that Baker gave those teams a chance to win every single week. Baker is at best a mediocre NFL QB.

You view mediocre as negative. I view it as being one of the very best in the world at his craft and fully capable of keeping us competitive in every game.

Competitive in every game except against winning teams. Or maybe that's Bowles.

[Grahamburn]

You view mediocre as negative. I view it as being one of the very best in the world at his craft and fully capable of keeping us competitive in every game.

Competitive in every game except against winning teams. Or maybe that's Bowles.

Therein lies the rub.

[Buc2]

I'm suggesting it isn't as black and white as some arbitrary question at the beginning of every year... "Can we win the Super Bowl?" Every team says this, but ultimately the goal is to be somewhat competitive week in and week out to keep your fans interested in your product. There's not some losing to winning switch you can flip just because your draft pick trajectory aligns with the perfect QB prospect.

I think I’m one of the few people here who have mentioned competitive cycles. Five-year plans, etc. I agree with you. Not every team should go into the year thinking about Super Bowl. However, the lions next season should really be thinking about the Super Bowl and what they need to do to get there. Upgrading quarterback for them is going to be an obvious thing to think about because Jared Goff is going to let them down in the playoffs. It’s him and:or the defense. Probably going to be both. They’re going to trail and he is going to have to step up.

Here's the thing...if they are going to seriously go into 2024 season thinking SB and they believe, like you, that Goff isn't the one to get them there, then there's only one real option available for them. They will need to trade for an established QB they feel is better than Goff. They're not going to draft a QB to get them into next year's show. Not realistically, anyway, based on historical data which will show that no rookie QB has even started a SB let alone won one.

So, realistically, who will be available to trade for that is better than Goff. I know that's not your problem to figure out. This is just for the sake of discussion. Wilson? Baker (LOL)? Who's left?

Now, if you want to change the parameters to them trying to make it to the SB in, say, 2 or 3 seasons from now, then they can try drafting a QB to accomplish that. But, again, drafting one this offseason won't help them for 2024.

[Snake]

I think I’m one of the few people here who have mentioned competitive cycles. Five-year plans, etc. I agree with you. Not every team should go into the year thinking about Super Bowl. However, the lions next season should really be thinking about the Super Bowl and what they need to do to get there. Upgrading quarterback for them is going to be an obvious thing to think about because Jared Goff is going to let them down in the playoffs. It’s him and:or the defense. Probably going to be both. They’re going to trail and he is going to have to step up.

Here's the thing...if they are going to seriously go into 2024 season thinking SB and they believe, like you, that Goff isn't the one to get them there, then there's only one real option available for them. They will need to trade for an established QB they feel is better than Goff. They're not going to draft a QB to get them into next year's show. Not realistically, anyway, based on historical data which will show that no rookie QB has even started a SB let alone won one.

So, realistically, who will be available to trade for that is better than Goff. I know that's not your problem to figure out. This is just for the sake of discussion. Wilson? Baker (LOL)? Who's left?

Now, if you want to change the parameters to them trying to make it to the SB in, say, 2 or 3 seasons from now, then they can try drafting a QB to accomplish that. But, again, drafting one this offseason won't help them for 2024.

If they add Jayden Daniels' athleticism, with their weapons, it could break the NFC.

[Buc2]

Whether one agrees with you or not, I don't see how what you're saying is so hard for some to grasp.

Because it's rubbish. It takes the true fact that it's hard to win a super bowl and weaponizes it to make a disingenuous claim and declare an empty victory.

You can say "you'll never win a SB with him" about any player and it will be true up until the day they achieve an already difficult life goal. It's the most pointless "I'm right until I'm not" take.

You absolutely CAN win with Goff. Now WILL you win with Goff is another matter. Jimmy G, his other example, was 3 min away from a ring himself.

This notion that QB must be first ballot HoF or bust is poison.

Then you're not reading what he's saying. You're just adding all these what if's to disagree with him.

It is HIS belief that Goff will not get them to a SB. It's an opinion. No one says you have to agree. So, if that is the Lions goal then, it is HIS belief, they need to move on from Goff to accomplish that goal. It's not any harder than that to see what he's saying.

I wasn't saying what he believes is true. I was saying that it's not hard to understand what he's saying.

Damn. You guys just love to argue.

[Backside]

Here's the thing...if they are going to seriously go into 2024 season thinking SB and they believe, like you, that Goff isn't the one to get them there, then there's only one real option available for them. They will need to trade for an established QB they feel is better than Goff. They're not going to draft a QB to get them into next year's show. Not realistically, anyway, based on historical data which will show that no rookie QB has even started a SB let alone won one.

So, realistically, who will be available to trade for that is better than Goff. I know that's not your problem to figure out. This is just for the sake of discussion. Wilson? Baker (LOL)? Who's left?

Now, if you want to change the parameters to them trying to make it to the SB in, say, 2 or 3 seasons from now, then they can try drafting a QB to accomplish that. But, again, drafting one this offseason won't help them for 2024.

If they add Jayden Daniels' athleticism, with their weapons, it could break the NFC.

That would be fun. Would love to see it.

It would also cost them all of their premium draft capital for the foreseeable future, and even then the team they want to trade with might not be interested. All for one roll of the dice.

[Miller4Prez64]

Damn, the Pro Bowl discussion really turned into another Baker Mayfield debate.

[Buc2]

Here's the thing...if they are going to seriously go into 2024 season thinking SB and they believe, like you, that Goff isn't the one to get them there, then there's only one real option available for them. They will need to trade for an established QB they feel is better than Goff. They're not going to draft a QB to get them into next year's show. Not realistically, anyway, based on historical data which will show that no rookie QB has even started a SB let alone won one.

So, realistically, who will be available to trade for that is better than Goff. I know that's not your problem to figure out. This is just for the sake of discussion. Wilson? Baker (LOL)? Who's left?

Now, if you want to change the parameters to them trying to make it to the SB in, say, 2 or 3 seasons from now, then they can try drafting a QB to accomplish that. But, again, drafting one this offseason won't help them for 2024.

If they add Jayden Daniels' athleticism, with their weapons, it could break the NFC.

Got me there. I don't follow college ball so I have little knowledge of who Jayden Daniels is. Regardless, he'd be the first rookie QB to start a SB if that were to happen. I'd put my money on it not happening. Maybe hedge it with a smaller bet that it would happen because the odds of it happening would be humongous.

[Snake]

If they add Jayden Daniels' athleticism, with their weapons, it could break the NFC.

Got me there. I don't follow college ball so I have little knowledge of who Jayden Daniels is. Regardless, he'd be the first rookie QB to start a SB if that were to happen. I'd put my money on it not happening. Maybe hedge it with a smaller bet that it would happen because the odds of it happening would be humongous.

I get what you're saying. The point is, it's not just this season. If the Lions manage their assets correctly, they are set up well for 3-5 seasons of being highly competitive. The roster and payroll matrices are living and fluid situations where you need to look ahead at all times.

[Buc2]

Got me there. I don't follow college ball so I have little knowledge of who Jayden Daniels is. Regardless, he'd be the first rookie QB to start a SB if that were to happen. I'd put my money on it not happening. Maybe hedge it with a smaller bet that it would happen because the odds of it happening would be humongous.

I get what you're saying. The point is, it's not just this season. If the Lions manage their assets correctly, they are set up well for 3-5 seasons of being highly competitive. The roster and payroll matrices are living and fluid situations where you need to look ahead at all times.

Sure. If they're willing to hedge their own 2024 season, then by all means, get that rookie QB they think can put them over the top in the next 2-3 seasons.

[Grahamburn]

Got me there. I don't follow college ball so I have little knowledge of who Jayden Daniels is. Regardless, he'd be the first rookie QB to start a SB if that were to happen. I'd put my money on it not happening. Maybe hedge it with a smaller bet that it would happen because the odds of it happening would be humongous.

I get what you're saying. The point is, it's not just this season. If the Lions manage their assets correctly, they are set up well for 3-5 seasons of being highly competitive. The roster and payroll matrices are living and fluid situations where you need to look ahead at all times.

They breezed through their division and are the #3 seed in the NFC.

[Snake]

I get what you're saying. The point is, it's not just this season. If the Lions manage their assets correctly, they are set up well for 3-5 seasons of being highly competitive. The roster and payroll matrices are living and fluid situations where you need to look ahead at all times.

They breezed through their division and are the #3 seed in the NFC.

We will see how it goes. I would love to see them win the Super Bowl and for Jared to make me look like a fool. There is no fanbase more deserving.

[kaimaru]

I hope there weren’t any contract incentives that weren’t met because of not being selected.

Other than regular season playing time, no rookie has incentives

[kaimaru]

Winfield is one of the bigger snubs my own memory. He lost to a guy with 0 sacks, 0 ints and 0 ff or fr. I'd wager his every down efficiency is just as good as his big play stats just going by the eyeball test.

Thr pro bowl remains a joke. The All Pro list is usually decent, I'm sure he will be there.

The sad part is that the fans total votes only counts for a third. Players and coaches have 2/3rds of the vote, so it's not a joke it is a snub outright

[acmillis]

I think I’m one of the few people here who have mentioned competitive cycles. Five-year plans, etc. I agree with you. Not every team should go into the year thinking about Super Bowl. However, the lions next season should really be thinking about the Super Bowl and what they need to do to get there. Upgrading quarterback for them is going to be an obvious thing to think about because Jared Goff is going to let them down in the playoffs. It’s him and:or the defense. Probably going to be both. They’re going to trail and he is going to have to step up.

Here's the thing...if they are going to seriously go into 2024 season thinking SB and they believe, like you, that Goff isn't the one to get them there, then there's only one real option available for them. They will need to trade for an established QB they feel is better than Goff. They're not going to draft a QB to get them into next year's show. Not realistically, anyway, based on historical data which will show that no rookie QB has even started a SB let alone won one.

So, realistically, who will be available to trade for that is better than Goff. I know that's not your problem to figure out. This is just for the sake of discussion. Wilson? Baker (LOL)? Who's left?

Now, if you want to change the parameters to them trying to make it to the SB in, say, 2 or 3 seasons from now, then they can try drafting a QB to accomplish that. But, again, drafting one this offseason won't help them for 2024.

Trade for Stafford…now that would be some funny poo!

[kaimaru]

Are the Cardinals set at QB though? Murray has one playoff game and it was a disaster. His teams have mostly been bad otherwise, though he obviously has crazy talent. Cardinals have a top five pick, would you move on from the QB again and take another if you were them?

Kyler Murray is a top seven quarterback in the league when he’s healthy. He was paired with an awful roster, and the worst coaching staff in NFL for his first few years. Then he tore his ACL. He still a really great talent.

So Murray being meh being hurt is okay, but Baker playing hurt is everyone plays hurt? You Baker haters really twist reality for a narrative. Every team he was on was in a crappy situation. All you Baker haters say his only year he did well was his first year with Stefanski. All the Baker haters say how bad Bowles is. So Murray is a Super Bowl winning QB because he is great when not hurt and he has had crap coaching, but somehow Baker is the exact opposite? You can't make this twisted logic up

[Buc2]

Kyler Murray is a top seven quarterback in the league when he’s healthy. He was paired with an awful roster, and the worst coaching staff in NFL for his first few years. Then he tore his ACL. He still a really great talent.

So Murray being meh being hurt is okay, but Baker playing hurt is everyone plays hurt? You Baker haters really twist reality for a narrative. Every team he was on was in a crappy situation. All you Baker haters say his only year he did well was his first year with Stefanski. All the Baker haters say how bad Bowles is. So Murray is a Super Bowl winning QB because he is great when not hurt and he has had crap coaching, but somehow Baker is the exact opposite? You can't make this twisted logic up

#itsabucslife