2023 -2024 tankathon

[Snake]

Hence the reason @Snake brought up tagging him. That would give him his 2nd year without tying up money in future salary caps.

How many other NFL teams would jump at the chance at signing Mayfield to a FA contract? How much is he worth on the open market?

9 months ago, the free market determined he was worth $4m guaranteed.

[mdb1958]

How many other NFL teams would jump at the chance at signing Mayfield to a FA contract? How much is he worth on the open market?

9 months ago, the free market determined he was worth $4m guaranteed.

1 year 7mil - he will have to understand.

[Bootz]

You don't think a playoff win earns him a second year?

Hence the reason @Snake brought up tagging him. That would give him his 2nd year without tying up money in future salary caps.

The franchise tag is basically unaffordable these days with how much QBs are earning on average.

[Bootz]

The answer to that is no. GMs/owners will always pay for a QB 1 way or another. As we should all know by now but pretend not to, QB skill doesn't guarantee winning. Daniel Jones, Jimmy G, Goff all have won playoff games. Jimmy G & Goff have been to the Superbowl.

Meanwhile guys like Kyler Murray and Justin Herbert have losing records as starters and have yet to won a playoff game. But they were "good enough" to at 1 point sign the largest contracts for QBs at the time.

It's tough navigating that QB landscape of "do I draft or do I pay" if you're a team.

That's what I'm getting at. I wonder if we're learning that they'll always pay up or it's more of a reflection of the options? For example, the last couple drafts haven't been great for QB prospects at least from a depth perspective. Did that lead, at least in part, to teams signing guys like JG and Carr to fairly large free agent deals without much track record of success? Jones to an extension? Baker is as good or better than those guys.

I wonder if we'll see something similar this off-season with a different level of QB depth expected in the next two drafts? Does Kirk Cousins get a mega-deal similar to Carr/JG? Probably, but he shouldn't. Baker? I guess we'll see how these last 4 games play out. Jameis and Tannehill have been starters. Are they likely to only get backup level contracts at best? Probably. Why Cousins will get $100M+ for the same results is beyond me.

I don't get the mentality of it though. You have enough of a track record to know you can't truly "win" with these guys. At least not consistently.

Seems like competent QB plays is so rare teams will pay out the nose for it just so they don't get their brains beat in every week.

Yep. You summed it up perfectly. Fact of the matter is if you show a glimmer of competent QB play you're gonna get paid.

Kirk Cousins is the poster boy for this movement. Remember he was the 1st to sign a fully guaranteed deal and he's never been confused with being a top 5 QB.

[Grahamburn]

How many other NFL teams would jump at the chance at signing Mayfield to a FA contract? How much is he worth on the open market?

9 months ago, the free market determined he was worth $4m guaranteed.

This is what we're trying to figure out. Now, this year he has shown he is at least a competent full time starter. If I were a team built like Pittsburgh Baker is someone I'd definitely look at assuming we don't re-sign him. Kirk Cousins could be an option for them too.

Spotrac has Baker's value at 2 years and $33M. Cousins at 3 years and $118M. I know who I'd rather have.

I'd bring Baker back here in a heartbeat for that.

[mdb1958]

Buuurrrmp!



That's out - time for Trask and Wolford.

[Sdbucs]

We currently sit at 20 because we decided to sign baker mayfield

The decision to sign Baker Mayfield is a good one so far.

PFF has Tampa at #22 in overall offense, #18 in passing offense

PFF has Baker at QB #21

We are at 6 wins under Baker, beating the Vikings #15, Bears #23 Saints #21, Titans #28 Panthers #32, Falcons #17

So we are a bottom third team with a qb playing in the bottom third and beating basically bottom third teams.

You’re telling me it would have been worse to ride out Trask instead and see what our draft pick could accomplish, rather than riding Baker to now #22nd place in the NFL?

[Grahamburn]

The decision to sign Baker Mayfield is a good one so far.

PFF has Tampa at #22 in overall offense, #18 in passing offense

PFF has Baker at QB #21

We are at 6 wins under Baker, beating the Vikings #15, Bears #23 Saints #21, Titans #28 Panthers #32, Falcons #17

So we are a bottom third team with a qb playing in the bottom third and beating basically bottom third teams.

You’re telling me it would have been worse to ride out Trask instead and see what our draft pick could accomplish, rather than riding Baker to now #22nd place in the NFL?

It depends on what your goals are as a team and what your definition of "worse" is.

[Bootz]

[mdb1958]

Bucs worked out ten players yesterday.

[Grahamburn]

Have to give them a little credit. It’s pretty incredible they’re fighting for the division instead of a top 3 pick with that much dead money.

*Tip of the dead cap.

[Snake]

Have to give them a little credit. It’s pretty incredible they’re fighting for the division instead of a top 3 pick with that much dead money.

*Tip of the dead cap.

Definitely benefiting from a crappy division. But this is a true statement. The Bucs have more talent than some teams that had $60m more to spend.

[Nobody]

As bad as Licht was in the 2021 draft, the returns of ‘22 and ‘23 are looking very good:

2022

Goedeke
White
Camarda

w/ Otton not embarrassing himself and McCollum appearing to ascend.

23

Kancey
Mauch
Diaby
Palmer
Russell (UDFA)


Imagine if 2021 we would have drafted “you-know-who?” The 2024 non-QB core of this team would be top 3 stout in terms of youth (1st contract) talent. We’re probably in that 5-10 range for next year (pending the draft).

[Jonny]

The answer to that is no. GMs/owners will always pay for a QB 1 way or another. As we should all know by now but pretend not to, QB skill doesn't guarantee winning. Daniel Jones, Jimmy G, Goff all have won playoff games. Jimmy G & Goff have been to the Superbowl.

Meanwhile guys like Kyler Murray and Justin Herbert have losing records as starters and have yet to won a playoff game. But they were "good enough" to at 1 point sign the largest contracts for QBs at the time.

It's tough navigating that QB landscape of "do I draft or do I pay" if you're a team.

That's what I'm getting at. I wonder if we're learning that they'll always pay up or it's more of a reflection of the options? For example, the last couple drafts haven't been great for QB prospects at least from a depth perspective. Did that lead, at least in part, to teams signing guys like JG and Carr to fairly large free agent deals without much track record of success? Jones to an extension? Baker is as good or better than those guys.

I wonder if we'll see something similar this off-season with a different level of QB depth expected in the next two drafts? Does Kirk Cousins get a mega-deal similar to Carr/JG? Probably, but he shouldn't. Baker? I guess we'll see how these last 4 games play out. Jameis and Tannehill have been starters. Are they likely to only get backup level contracts at best? Probably. Why Cousins will get $100M+ for the same results is beyond me.

I don't get the mentality of it though. You have enough of a track record to know you can't truly "win" with these guys. At least not consistently.

Seems like competent QB plays is so rare teams will pay out the nose for it just so they don't get their brains beat in every week.

I would be happy to pay Kirk Cousins between 25-35 mil to start for us. He's a model of consistency as far as his stats go. I don't know if he will be able to make more than that if Vikings pass on him.

I also don't think Baker is better than Carr. If the Bucs make playoffs with Baker playing well remainder of the games, I can start to agree with that claim. Our situation is pretty similar to where Carr led Raiders were a couple of years back and Carr was pretty clutch against some good competition, carrying his team on his back in the final few games of regular season.

[Jonny]

As bad as Licht was in the 2021 draft, the returns of ‘22 and ‘23 are looking very good:

2022

Goedeke
White
Camarda

w/ Otton not embarrassing himself and McCollum appearing to ascend.

23

Kancey
Mauch
Diaby
Palmer
Russell (UDFA)


Imagine if 2021 we would have drafted “you-know-who?” The 2024 non-QB core of this team would be top 3 stout in terms of youth (1st contract) talent. We’re probably in that 5-10 range for next year (pending the draft).

Have you seen anything from Logan Hall to remain optimistic?

[Nobody]

As bad as Licht was in the 2021 draft, the returns of ‘22 and ‘23 are looking very good:

2022

Goedeke
White
Camarda

w/ Otton not embarrassing himself and McCollum appearing to ascend.

23

Kancey
Mauch
Diaby
Palmer
Russell (UDFA)


Imagine if 2021 we would have drafted “you-know-who?” The 2024 non-QB core of this team would be top 3 stout in terms of youth (1st contract) talent. We’re probably in that 5-10 range for next year (pending the draft).

Have you seen anything from Logan Hall to remain optimistic?

Optimistic that he'll live up to the lofty requirements of play inherent to the 33rd selection in the draft?

No.

If he was a 5th or 6th round pick he would have been cut by now. Bad pad level, no suddenness (not in cognitive loop nor snap anticipation nor explosiveness off the ball nor laterally/change-of-direction), no rush suite advancement, no consequential hand usage maturation/pop/violence, motor is "as expected", no anchor against double teams, misses some tackles on his plays-to-make, position-versatility is a fiction at this point (an aspiration that doesn't show up on the field).

William Gholston (his oft-comparison) is a much better player now in year 11 at going-on-33. William was a better player than Hall in his own year 2. William was not a good player in year 2 (he wasn't terrible...but he certainly wasn't good). William was the 126th selection...not 33rd.

[Jonny]

Have you seen anything from Logan Hall to remain optimistic?

Optimistic that he'll live up to the lofty requirements of play inherent to the 33rd selection in the draft?

No.

If he was a 5th or 6th round pick he would have been cut by now. Bad pad level, no suddenness (not in cognitive loop nor snap anticipation nor explosiveness off the ball nor laterally/change-of-direction), no rush suite advancement, no consequential hand usage maturation/pop/violence, motor is "as expected", no anchor against double teams, misses some tackles on his plays-to-make, position-versatility is a fiction at this point (an aspiration that doesn't show up on the field).

William Gholston (his oft-comparison) is a much better player now in year 11 at going-on-33. William was a better player than Hall in his own year 2. William was not a good player in year 2 (he wasn't terrible...but he certainly wasn't good). William was the 126th selection...not 33rd.

Ouch.

There were some pass rush snaps earlier this season where Hall and Kancey fed off of each other to bring pressure. And then eventually I went back to forgetting that a player named Logan Hall was playing for the Bucs. With Goedeke making such a massive improvement, I was holding out hope that Hall would develop into a solid contributor. But he seems to be a warm body with little to hope for at this point.

[Bootz]

There's also this. Dead money can be avoided.

[kaimaru]

Caleb Williams will be a failure in the NFL

Why?

I have watched every pass this season on YT. I see he is incredibly accurate short, but other than that he is inconsistent in his ball placement. He runs too often instead of waiting for receivers to come open. He has some wheels, but I feel like his processing is why he gives up on plays way too early. That specifically is why I feel he won't succeed

[kaimaru]

How many other NFL teams would jump at the chance at signing Mayfield to a FA contract? How much is he worth on the open market?

9 months ago, the free market determined he was worth $4m guaranteed.

That is not true. He was offered more in a backup role but chose a job where he had a chance to be a starter

[Phantom]

9 months ago, the free market determined he was worth $4m guaranteed.

That is not true. He was offered more in a backup role but chose a job where he had a chance to be a starter

BINGO!

[Snake]

9 months ago, the free market determined he was worth $4m guaranteed.

That is not true. He was offered more in a backup role but chose a job where he had a chance to be a starter

So he turned down $6m?

The point still stands.

[Phantom]

LOL! My freaking god.

[Snake]

See:

[13F11B]

See:

Don't worry the Buccaneers will lose next week and get a better draft pick for you.

[Snake]

See:

Don't worry the Buccaneers will lose next week and get a better draft pick for you.

Good. Need Pittsburgh and Cincy wins tonight too.

[Central_Buc]

Latest projection is lose in WC, 20th pick Edge Rusher Chop Robinson. PSU

Atlanta with Penix at 9.

[Bootz]

Latest projection is lose in WC, 20th pick Edge Rusher Chop Robinson. PSU

Atlanta with Penix at 9.

Wouldn't hate it

[Doctor]

Have you seen anything from Logan Hall to remain optimistic?

Optimistic that he'll live up to the lofty requirements of play inherent to the 33rd selection in the draft?

No.

If he was a 5th or 6th round pick he would have been cut by now. Bad pad level, no suddenness (not in cognitive loop nor snap anticipation nor explosiveness off the ball nor laterally/change-of-direction), no rush suite advancement, no consequential hand usage maturation/pop/violence, motor is "as expected", no anchor against double teams, misses some tackles on his plays-to-make, position-versatility is a fiction at this point (an aspiration that doesn't show up on the field).

William Gholston (his oft-comparison) is a much better player now in year 11 at going-on-33. William was a better player than Hall in his own year 2. William was not a good player in year 2 (he wasn't terrible...but he certainly wasn't good). William was the 126th selection...not 33rd.

While true I've always found anticipatory disappointment to be a loser's philosophy.

Take Gholston, who I love as a bucs fan. Not on the level of the top tier guys of the franchise, but that next tier with guys like Shelton Quarles and others of that nature. Guys who gave us great play over many years and have rightfully earned the adoration of fans imo.

Now take their careers, keep every single snap the same, all same stats, all same outcomes, but make them a first round picks. All of the sudden they are hated busts. That's ridiculous to me. 99.99% of their careers remain the same but you change one moment, one that they had NO CONTROL over, and the entire perspective shifts.

Because of anticipatory disappointment.

[mdb1958]

Latest projection is lose in WC, 20th pick Edge Rusher Chop Robinson. PSU

Atlanta with Penix at 9.

Wouldn't hate it

Something tells me to say look at pick 24th and later.

[mdb1958]

Two that won't reach are DeJean and Fuaga then there is nothing left in the first round I want. Then you trade down and look at OL, CB, and S.

[mdb1958]

Optimistic that he'll live up to the lofty requirements of play inherent to the 33rd selection in the draft?

No.

If he was a 5th or 6th round pick he would have been cut by now. Bad pad level, no suddenness (not in cognitive loop nor snap anticipation nor explosiveness off the ball nor laterally/change-of-direction), no rush suite advancement, no consequential hand usage maturation/pop/violence, motor is "as expected", no anchor against double teams, misses some tackles on his plays-to-make, position-versatility is a fiction at this point (an aspiration that doesn't show up on the field).

William Gholston (his oft-comparison) is a much better player now in year 11 at going-on-33. William was a better player than Hall in his own year 2. William was not a good player in year 2 (he wasn't terrible...but he certainly wasn't good). William was the 126th selection...not 33rd.

While true I've always found anticipatory disappointment to be a loser's philosophy.

Take Gholston, who I love as a bucs fan. Not on the level of the top tier guys of the franchise, but that next tier with guys like Shelton Quarles and others of that nature. Guys who gave us great play over many years and have rightfully earned the adoration of fans imo.

Now take their careers, keep every single snap the same, all same stats, all same outcomes, but make them a first round picks. All of the sudden they are hated busts. That's ridiculous to me. 99.99% of their careers remain the same but you change one moment, one that they had NO CONTROL over, and the entire perspective shifts.

Because of anticipatory disappointment.

Try limiting value of said source or how much you are bothered by it.

[Doctor]

I don't know why I try to understand you. Every time.

[mdb1958]

I don't know why I try to understand you. Every time.

Because of anticipatory disappointment.

[Doctor]

Boom