Championship Sunday Discussion

[CantonJester]

It’s a lazy argument to make because it fails to account for the simple reality that today’s NFL is far more pass-happy than two decades ago.

Mahomes is ridiculously good. So was Brady. Mahomes still has a crap-ton of work to do reach GOAT status, as Brady has more SB rings than all the teams in the NFL.

That's a cop out. Winning is winning, regardless of the era.

I said Mahomes needs more SB wins and wins in general, but comparing his first 6 years to Brady's is absolutely fair and so far Mahomes has a better start.

I was referring to the tweet that shows statistics used to compare the two QBs. Obviously Mahomes would be successful in Brady’s era, but they’re not really analogous other than the fact it’s the same sport.

[Phantom]

The Lions should have won by three if Campbel go for FG on two 4th downs. Yeah, I know shoulda, woulda coulda whatever

[Kress]

I agree with all that's been said above about the Mahomes / Brady stuff, but for those trying to compare eras - and reaching back to career starts - the beauty of this thing is that Brady played on into Mahomes' era. So..... look at 2021 (I'm intentionally ignoring Brady's last 2022 season because he made way too many business decisions that year.)

Brady: 485-719, 67.5%, 5,316 yds, 73.1 QBR
Homey: 436-658, 66.3 %, 4,839 yds, 67.7 QBR (also 381 rushing, to Tom's 81)

Move Tom into Mahomes' era, and he still holds up.

[Phantom]

IMO, the Lions were significantly impacted by the amazing catch.by Brandon Aiyuk.

[Doctor]

I don't think that's just your opinion... the whole game was significantly impacted by it.

[Doctor]

The "you'll never win with D Smith at LT" crowd about to get a second work over...

[Bootz]

Neck and neck?

Re-read the edited portion and get back to me.

The NFL was the same back then, right?
In 2001, Kurt Warner won MVP with 36 TDs and 22 INTs.
In 2002, Gannon won MVP by throwing for 26 TDs and 10INTs.
In 2003, Peyton won MVP by throwing for 29 TDs and 10 INTS.

If you're going purely by stats, sure, Mahomes blows him out of the water, but it was an entirely different league 20 years ago.

Okay. Forget the stats then.

Mahomes has a better overall record. More playoff wins, SB appearances, MVP awards, Pro Bowls, All-Pro Teams and Offensive Player of the Year awards.

[acmillis]

The NFL was the same back then, right?
In 2001, Kurt Warner won MVP with 36 TDs and 22 INTs.
In 2002, Gannon won MVP by throwing for 26 TDs and 10INTs.
In 2003, Peyton won MVP by throwing for 29 TDs and 10 INTS.

If you're going purely by stats, sure, Mahomes blows him out of the water, but it was an entirely different league 20 years ago.

Okay. Forget the stats then.

Mahomes has a better overall record. More playoff wins, SB appearances, MVP awards, Pro Bowls, All-Pro Teams and Offensive Player of the Year awards.

...wins?

[Bootz]

Okay. Forget the stats then.

Mahomes has a better overall record. More playoff wins, SB appearances, MVP awards, Pro Bowls, All-Pro Teams and Offensive Player of the Year awards.

...wins?

3 for Brady, 2 currently for Mahomes TBD on February 11th on whether it stays at 2 or jumps to 3.

[Jonny]

Lamar Jackson has quietly gone from "this guy can't win playing like Mike Vick" to "he redefined the QB position " to "he can't win in playoffs" to "he's the best player in 2023" to "Josh Allen is Phillip Rivers".

There were many stylish takes criticizing Allen for losing to the Chiefs all of last week. There is no where such energy to criticizing Lamar.

[Bootz]

Lamar Jackson has quietly gone from "this guy can't win playing like Mike Vick" to "he redefined the QB position " to "he can't win in playoffs" to "he's the best player in 2023" to "Josh Allen is Phillip Rivers".

There were many stylish takes criticizing Allen for losing to the Chiefs all of last week. There is no where such energy to criticizing Lamar.

I think yesterday's game plan is overshadowing everything else in that game, even the fact that the Chiefs won. #1 rushing team in football runs 5 times with their RBs. Against a defense that was gashed on the ground last week. It's very bizarre because that's not the Ravens identity. They upgraded at WR but this group is still middle of the pack and is not going to beat coverage consistently without the threat of a run game.

That said, Lamar deserves a lot more criticism than he's getting. Too many careless mistakes with the ball, being too hesistant to run when the lanes were clear. He did nothing to quell his post season demons.

[Cheb]

Lamar Jackson has quietly gone from "this guy can't win playing like Mike Vick" to "he redefined the QB position " to "he can't win in playoffs" to "he's the best player in 2023" to "Josh Allen is Phillip Rivers".

There were many stylish takes criticizing Allen for losing to the Chiefs all of last week. There is no where such energy to criticizing Lamar.

I think yesterday's game plan is overshadowing everything else in that game, even the fact that the Chiefs won. #1 rushing team in football runs 5 times with their RBs. Against a defense that was gashed on the ground last week. It's very bizarre because that's not the Ravens identity. They upgraded at WR but this group is still middle of the pack and is not going to beat coverage consistently without the threat of a run game.

That said, Lamar deserves a lot more criticism than he's getting. Too many careless mistakes with the ball, being too hesistant to run when the lanes were clear. He did nothing to quell his post season demons.

Seconded. Jackson was far from perfect, but their offensive gameplan was so pants-on-head stupid that it overshadows his inadequacies. Baltimore should have gone into the game determined to grind Kansas City into a fine paste with their run game, which helps out their defense and keeps the ball outta Mahomes' hands. And yet they did the exact opposite by putting the ball into Jackson's hands and having plan A be to air it out, when that goes against their strengths in every way.

[Snake]

Same old story

[Pirate Life]

People still wanna pretend it's not close?



Mahomes also has 2 league MVP awards, 2 1st Team All-Pro selections, an OPOY award and 6 Pro Bowls.

At the same point, Brady had no MVPs, no 1st team all pro selections, no OPOY award and 3 Pro Bowls.

They are both at the top of the list among the great QBs of all time.. but Mahomes went to a situation most QBs can't even dream of. KC was a winning team before he got there (last losing season was in 2012, they were in the playoffs the previous two years before he was drafted), one of the best offensive-minded HCs in this era and with a HoF WR and TE already in place. Skill position players in his first SB were Damien Williams, Tyreek Hill, Sammie Watkins, Mecole Hardman and Travis Kelce. Eric Bienemy as the OC and Mike Kafka as the QB coach. Offensive system is essentially the West Coast offense, very QB friendly.

Contrast that to Brady's early career...

Brady was drafted in BB's first year as a head coach in NE, which was a losing season (only one he was a part of until 2022). The skill position players lining up with him in his second season was the veritable murderer's row of Antoine Smith, Troy Brown, David Patten and Jermaine Wiggins. Offensive Coordinator was Charlie Weis, no QB coach (2001 Patriots had 4 defensive coaches, two offensive (Weis and O-line coach Jeff Davidson not including BB). Patriots ran a version of the Erhardt-Perkins (yes, former Bucs coach Ray Perkins) offense, which is versatile but simplistic and a holdover of the 'ground and pound' offenses of the 70's and 80's. Erhardt used to say, "Throw to score, run to win." Patriots (and Brady) absolutely mastered the way the offense could be run, but it'd take a few years before BB would let them 'open it up'.

Brady came into the league when things were changing offensively with new rules favoring the passing game, but the Patriots still focused on running the ball until Brady's 8th season for the most part.

They both will be all-time greats, but Mahomes definitely had the better situation to walk into after being drafted. He's part of the equation that lead to KC's success no doubt about it. This season is the closest one he's had to the type of team Brady played on for his first seven seasons, KC mostly succeeded due to the defensive side of the ball than the offensive side.

[kaimaru]

The Packers have managed to have a top 10 O-line despite their star LT hurt the whole year. They also possibly have one of the best RBs in the league and a QB clearly ascending. Combine that with a very young and deep core of talented WRs and a scheme that is as good as it gets. The 9ers and the Cowboys defenses looked pretty average against their offense and nothing felt fluky about it.

Maybe passing O-line, both AJ Dillon and Aaron Jones had career lows for yards per rush. Young WRs, yes, talented? Isn't it a bit early to crown them as being good? They have no Deebo and no one is in McCaffrey's league. Giving up 21 points means they made the 49ers defense look average? So you're saying GB is probably at least 12 or 15 points worse than Detroit's offense (since Campbell refused to kick field goals)? I am guessing they are your other team?

[kaimaru]

That's a cop out. Winning is winning, regardless of the era.

I said Mahomes needs more SB wins and wins in general, but comparing his first 6 years to Brady's is absolutely fair and so far Mahomes has a better start.

I was referring to the tweet that shows statistics used to compare the two QBs. Obviously Mahomes would be successful in Brady’s era, but they’re not really analogous other than the fact it’s the same sport.

Mahommes would be knocked out the way he plays if it was 2000. They would have head hunted him to "send a message."

[kaimaru]

Lamar Jackson has quietly gone from "this guy can't win playing like Mike Vick" to "he redefined the QB position " to "he can't win in playoffs" to "he's the best player in 2023" to "Josh Allen is Phillip Rivers".

There were many stylish takes criticizing Allen for losing to the Chiefs all of last week. There is no where such energy to criticizing Lamar.

I think yesterday's game plan is overshadowing everything else in that game, even the fact that the Chiefs won. #1 rushing team in football runs 5 times with their RBs. Against a defense that was gashed on the ground last week. It's very bizarre because that's not the Ravens identity. They upgraded at WR but this group is still middle of the pack and is not going to beat coverage consistently without the threat of a run game.

That said, Lamar deserves a lot more criticism than he's getting. Too many careless mistakes with the ball, being too hesistant to run when the lanes were clear. He did nothing to quell his post season demons.

That drove me crazy all game

[Digital_Damage]

People still wanna pretend it's not close?



Mahomes also has 2 league MVP awards, 2 1st Team All-Pro selections, an OPOY award and 6 Pro Bowls.

At the same point, Brady had no MVPs, no 1st team all pro selections, no OPOY award and 3 Pro Bowls.

Anyone comparing Brady's first 6 years with Mahomes last 6 is a certified idiot. I was over a decade ago, it was a different game.

Comparing Mahomes last 6 years with Brady's last 6 years is a more valid analysis and shows how close they really were even with Brady on the slide.

If I had to pick Peak Brady Vs Peak Mahomes. It's still Brady at the moment... The guy won a Superbowl every other season for a period of time.

ALSO...

Anyone bring up Pro Bowls as a performance stat is an idiot... It does not mean what it used to.

[uscbucsfan1]

I was referring to the tweet that shows statistics used to compare the two QBs. Obviously Mahomes would be successful in Brady’s era, but they’re not really analogous other than the fact it’s the same sport.

Mahommes would be knocked out the way he plays if it was 2000. They would have head hunted him to "send a message."

This doesn't make sense. He's bigger than Elway or Young and basically the same size as McNabb or McNair at his age.

People like to say this, but there's no logic to it. Simply because he's not getting hit like that regularly now, people assume all these players wouldn't last...when much smaller, less athletic QBs did just fine. Could you imagine someone like Jake Plummer running around and not dying prior to 2000?

[Digital_Damage]

Same old story

I mean... Allen did suck this season overall. Him making the top 5 cut for MVP was stupid.

Lamar has always been a gadget guy. Him being the presumptuous MVP is also stupid. It should go to McCaffrey

[Snake]

Same old story

I mean... Allen did suck this season overall. Him making the top 5 cut for MVP was stupid.

Lamar has always been a gadget guy. Him being the presumptuous MVP is also stupid. It should go to McCaffrey

This is quite the series of takes. I respect it.

[uscbucsfan1]

Anyone comparing Brady's first 6 years with Mahomes last 6 is a certified idiot. I was over a decade ago, it was a different game.

Comparing Mahomes last 6 years with Brady's last 6 years is a more valid analysis and shows how close they really were even with Brady on the slide.

If I had to pick Peak Brady Vs Peak Mahomes. It's still Brady at the moment... The guy won a Superbowl every other season for a period of time.

ALSO...

Anyone bring up Pro Bowls as a performance stat is an idiot... It does not mean what it used to.

It's not idiotic to compare them vs. their peers. Mahomes has had a better first 6 years than Brady all things considered. It is dumb to use pure stats, but accolades, wins, impact of the game, and stats vs peers are fair, more wins, more recognition against his peers, more instrumental to the team's success.

We likely haven't even seen "peak Mahomes" and he hasn't caught Brady, yet, but again, it's absolutely fair to look at Brady's first 6 years vs. Mahomes...it not only shows how historic Mahomes first 6 years are, but how much longer he has to keep it up.

edit: I forgot that you are the one person outside of Lugz who said Mahomes isn't near a HOF QB already...shows the lack of credibility you have with this subject.

[Digital_Damage]

Mahommes would be knocked out the way he plays if it was 2000. They would have head hunted him to "send a message."

This doesn't make sense. He's bigger than Elway or Young and basically the same size as McNabb or McNair at his age.

People like to say this, but there's no logic to it. Simply because he's not getting hit like that regularly now, people assume all these players wouldn't last...when much smaller, less athletic QBs did just fine. Could you imagine someone like Jake Plummer running around and not dying prior to 2000?

McNair is probably the closest, and he did get absolutely destroyed in 2002 and had to change his game...

[uscbucsfan1]

This doesn't make sense. He's bigger than Elway or Young and basically the same size as McNabb or McNair at his age.

People like to say this, but there's no logic to it. Simply because he's not getting hit like that regularly now, people assume all these players wouldn't last...when much smaller, less athletic QBs did just fine. Could you imagine someone like Jake Plummer running around and not dying prior to 2000?

McNair is probably the closest, and he did get absolutely destroyed in 2002 and had to change his game...

Outside of McNabb, the rest of those guys were smaller and less athletic, agreed.

[uscbucsfan1]

Glad you deleted that, because you missed the whole "you can't use pure stats".

[Digital_Damage]

Anyone comparing Brady's first 6 years with Mahomes last 6 is a certified idiot. I was over a decade ago, it was a different game.

Comparing Mahomes last 6 years with Brady's last 6 years is a more valid analysis and shows how close they really were even with Brady on the slide.

If I had to pick Peak Brady Vs Peak Mahomes. It's still Brady at the moment... The guy won a Superbowl every other season for a period of time.

ALSO...

Anyone bring up Pro Bowls as a performance stat is an idiot... It does not mean what it used to.

It's not idiotic to compare them vs. their peers. Mahomes has had a better first 6 years than Brady all things considered. It is dumb to use pure stats, but accolades, wins, impact of the game, and stats vs peers are fair, more wins, more recognition against his peers, more instrumental to the team's success.

We likely haven't even seen "peak Mahomes" and he hasn't caught Brady, yet, but again, it's absolutely fair to look at Brady's first 6 years vs. Mahomes...it not only shows how historic Mahomes first 6 years are, but how much longer he has to keep it up.

edit: I forgot that you are the one person outside of Lugz who said Mahomes isn't near a HOF QB already...shows the lack of credibility you have with this subject.

No its fucking stupid... completely different game.

If you put two brain cells together you would figure out Mahomes still edge Brady during that time frame... but keep saying stupid shit.

And yes, At the time I said that Mahomes had work to do for the HOF. He has eclipse that and will get in first ballot.

[Deja Entendu]

Mahomes is incredible. He really is, but Brady is unequivocally the greatest QB ever.

The fact that there needs to be extrapolation and dissecting to make any sort of argument for Mahomes really helps cement the case.

Mahomes supporters want to prop up the first six years. Ok, cool: He’s off to a great start. Arguably equal or better depending on if they win this SB, and if they don’t it’ll be a worse start based on playoffs and SB wins.

Regardless of their first six years, that’s not what made Brady the greatest. Greatest of all time isn’t in a cherry picked vacuum (for either side), it’s about totality. As almost everyone he already said, Mahomes is still successful years, defining moments, playoff wins, and, of course, Super Bowl titles away from this being anything more than this…

[Navybuc]

While it's fun to argue about "Who's the GOAT," you really can't compare different eras. Different athletes, different rules, different roles. You can really only argue about who is the GOAT in the era they played in. That's why I don't get in arguments about Tiger vs. Jack, Babe vs. Hank, Michael vs. Lebron, or even Brady vs. Montana.

Brady is unique because of his longevity. It's kind of like Jack Nicklaus in golf...Jack won majors from his early 20s to his late 40s, but Tiger dominated like no player ever did within a 10-year period. That's how I see Mahomes right now. Talent-wise, yeah, he's prolly better than Brady ever was. He can do more than Brady, and he's playing in a more QB-friendly era. But longevity-wise, I'm not sure he can keep it going like this for 10-15 years. But Mahomes is definitely GOAT of this era. Brady the GOAT of the last era. Montana the one before him.

[Digital_Damage]

Mahomes is incredible. He really is, but Brady is unequivocally the greatest QB ever.

The fact that there needs to be extrapolation and dissecting to make any sort of argument for Mahomes really helps cement the case.

Mahomes supporters want to prop up the first six years. Ok, cool: He’s off to a great start. Arguably equal or better depending on if they win this SB, and if they don’t it’ll be a worse start based on playoffs and SB wins.

Regardless of their first six years, that’s not what made Brady the greatest. Greatest of all time isn’t in a cherry picked vacuum (for either side), it’s about totality. As almost everyone he already said, Mahomes is still successful years, defining moments, playoff wins, and, of course, Super Bowl titles away from this being anything more than this…

In Agreement he has another decade+ to make his case.

But... Even When Brady had statistically eclipsed and tied super bowls with Joe in 2014. Joe was still considered the greatest until 2016.

The bar Bady set is monstrous.

I think it would be a better exercise to figure out what Mahomes would have to achieve to be considered the greatest.

I mean for starters... 8 super bowls (one more than Bady) is no fucking joke of a high mark.

[uscbucsfan1]

Regardless of their first six years, that’s not what made Brady the greatest. Greatest of all time isn’t in a cherry picked vacuum (for either side), it’s about totality. As almost everyone he already said, Mahomes is still successful years, defining moments, playoff wins, and, of course, Super Bowl titles away from this being anything more than this…

Absolutely. No one has said Mahomes is better than Brady. He's had a slightly better start to his career, which only 1 person seems to completely disregard because of bias, but that's just 6 years. Brady did it for 23.

The whole point of those stats is just because how wild Mahomes start has been, at worst even with Brady and most see him to have started better. Brady's first 6 years were lauded and many called him the GOAT then, others would argue that he needed a lot more to pass Montana, until he did.

It shows a historic start Mahomes, but also shows how ridiculously far he has to go and how many more of these he needs to catch up...and how damn impossible it is to sustain this for an entire career.

[Deja Entendu]

McNair is probably the closest, and he did get absolutely destroyed in 2002 and had to change his game...

Outside of McNabb, the rest of those guys were smaller and less athletic, agreed.

And McNabb (who not so coincidentally thrived under Reid) also changed his game due to the beating.

[Deja Entendu]

Regardless of their first six years, that’s not what made Brady the greatest. Greatest of all time isn’t in a cherry picked vacuum (for either side), it’s about totality. As almost everyone he already said, Mahomes is still successful years, defining moments, playoff wins, and, of course, Super Bowl titles away from this being anything more than this…

Absolutely. No one has said Mahomes is better than Brady. He's had a slightly better start to his career, which only 1 person seems to completely disregard because of bias, but that's just 6 years. Brady did it for 23.

The whole point of those stats is just because how wild Mahomes start has been, at worst even with Brady and most see him to have started better. Brady's first 6 years were lauded and many called him the GOAT then, others would argue that he needed a lot more to pass Montana, until he did.

It shows a historic start Mahomes, but also shows how ridiculously far he has to go and how many more of these he needs to catch up...and how damn impossible it is to sustain this for an entire career.

This conversation started because it was asked if people were willing to admit Mahomes is the greatest of all time.

The rest of the internet is also littered with people trying to argue the same.

So while many here have had rational takes about it, not everyone does.

[uscbucsfan1]

If you put two brain cells together you would figure out Mahomes still edge Brady during that time frame... but keep saying stupid shit.

And yes, At the time I said that Mahomes had work to do for the HOF. He has eclipse that and will get in first ballot.

1. In what way? You say that, but if he wins against the 49ers, they are tied with SBs, Mahomes will have 2 or 3 more MVPs (depending if he gets SB MVP) and more All-Pro teams. No reason to mention all of the passing stats.

2. Yes and you were wrong...everyone else knew you were wrong, but you didn't have an argument for that, either.

[uscbucsfan1]

Absolutely. No one has said Mahomes is better than Brady. He's had a slightly better start to his career, which only 1 person seems to completely disregard because of bias, but that's just 6 years. Brady did it for 23.

The whole point of those stats is just because how wild Mahomes start has been, at worst even with Brady and most see him to have started better. Brady's first 6 years were lauded and many called him the GOAT then, others would argue that he needed a lot more to pass Montana, until he did.

It shows a historic start Mahomes, but also shows how ridiculously far he has to go and how many more of these he needs to catch up...and how damn impossible it is to sustain this for an entire career.

This conversation started because it was asked if people were willing to admit Mahomes is the greatest of all time.

The rest of the internet is also littered with people trying to argue the same.

So while many here have had rational takes about it, not everyone does.

Maybe I'm incorrect...and probably am, but I don't think Bootz was saying he's already the GOAT, just that they are close, then further saying Mahomes has been better when comparing both of their first 6 seasons, which is obviously debatable and many believe it to be true.

[uscbucsfan1]

Outside of McNabb, the rest of those guys were smaller and less athletic, agreed.

And McNabb (who not so coincidentally thrived under Reid) also changed his game due to the beating.

But they survived. It's just a weird thing people do that these newer athletes wouldn't make it at all in previous times. They would be even more dominant. Most had shorter careers due to the rules. Brady wouldn't have player 23 seasons in all in that era, he's joked about it, but their play would absolutely translate.