Navybuc wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 7:47 pm
While it's fun to argue about "Who's the GOAT," you really can't compare different eras. Different athletes, different rules, different roles. You can really only argue about who is the GOAT in the era they played in. That's why I don't get in arguments about Tiger vs. Jack, Babe vs. Hank, Michael vs. Lebron, or even Brady vs. Montana.
Brady is unique because of his longevity. It's kind of like Jack Nicklaus in golf...Jack won majors from his early 20s to his late 40s, but Tiger dominated like no player ever did within a 10-year period. That's how I see Mahomes right now. Talent-wise, yeah, he's prolly better than Brady ever was. He can do more than Brady, and he's playing in a more QB-friendly era. But longevity-wise, I'm not sure he can keep it going like this for 10-15 years. But Mahomes is definitely GOAT of this era. Brady the GOAT of the last era. Montana the one before him.
I semi-agree with this in regards to comparing players from different eras.
The uniqueness of Brady is that his reign included the first 5 years of Mahomes career. So while comparing Michael vs Lebron is comparable to Brady/Mahomes vs Montana in that regard. Brady vs. Mahomes is more similar to Jordan vs. Kobe with their overlap, and that answer is and always was Michael.
If you put two brain cells together you would figure out Mahomes still edge Brady during that time frame... but keep saying stupid shit.
And yes, At the time I said that Mahomes had work to do for the HOF. He has eclipse that and will get in first ballot.
1. In what way? You say that, but if he wins against the 49ers, they are tied with SBs, Mahomes will have 2 or 3 more MVPs (depending if he gets SB MVP) and more All-Pro teams. No reason to mention all of the passing stats.
2. Yes and you were wrong...everyone else knew you were wrong, but you didn't have an argument for that, either.
Brady only won 2 over the last 6 seasons... I know we all want to forget that Bowles fucked 2021 but you are not making a strong case here...
It was a logical argument... if you let Mahomes in you had to let others in with equitable accolades. I said he had another year or two to cement it, and he did.
Last edited by Digital_Damage on Mon Jan 29, 2024 8:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1. In what way? You say that, but if he wins against the 49ers, they are tied with SBs, Mahomes will have 2 or 3 more MVPs (depending if he gets SB MVP) and more All-Pro teams. No reason to mention all of the passing stats.
2. Yes and you were wrong...everyone else knew you were wrong, but you didn't have an argument for that, either.
Brady only won 2 over the last 6 seasons... I know we all want to forget that Bowles fucked 2021 but you are not making a strong case here...
It was a logical argument... if you let Mahomes in you had to let other in with equitable accolades. I said he had another year or two to cement it, and he did.
We are talking both of their first 6 seasons in the NFL...Brady won 3, Mahomes has a chance for 3. That's the entire conversation. You keep getting lost.
As everyone said last year, no one has ever won multiple MVPs and not been elected in the HOF. Mahomes had 2 regular season, 2 SB...there was 0 chance he wasn't getting in. People quoted individuals who voted saying he was already a 1st round lock. He basically surpassed Eli's entire career last season.
Last edited by uscbucsfan1 on Mon Jan 29, 2024 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Brady only won 2 over the last 6 seasons... I know we all want to forget that Bowles fucked 2021 but you are not making a strong case here...
It was a logical argument... if you let Mahomes in you had to let other in with equitable accolades. I said he had another year or two to cement it, and he did.
We are talking both of their first 6 seasons in the NFL...Brady won 3, Mahomes has a chance for 3. That's the entire conversation. You keep getting lost.
I'm not... I'm talking about their last 6 seasons. Keep up. The whole "the first 6 is a valid argument" is what set this whole stupid conversation down this path. Mahomes still edges him over the last 6 seasons, in the new rule era.
We are talking both of their first 6 seasons in the NFL...Brady won 3, Mahomes has a chance for 3. That's the entire conversation. You keep getting lost.
I'm not... I'm talking about their last 6 seasons. Keep up. The whole "the first 6 is a valid argument" is what set this whole stupid conversation down this path.
So you've created a completely separate argument. Who are you having this with?
The entire tweet is Mahomes vs. Brady's 1st 6 years in the league. Your argument doesn't make any sense...I see now why you're so lost and most of this is not connecting.
Brady only won 2 over the last 6 seasons... I know we all want to forget that Bowles fucked 2021 but you are not making a strong case here...
It was a logical argument... if you let Mahomes in you had to let other in with equitable accolades. I said he had another year or two to cement it, and he did.
We are talking both of their first 6 seasons in the NFL...Brady won 3, Mahomes has a chance for 3. That's the entire conversation. You keep getting lost.
As everyone said last year, no one has ever won multiple MVPs and not been elected in the HOF. Mahomes had 2 regular season, 2 SB...there was 0 chance he wasn't getting in. People quoted individuals who voted saying he was already a 1st round lock. He basically surpassed Eli's entire career last season.
He was making the case that a more apt comparison would be Brady’s last 6 vs Mahomes first 6 due to it being the same era.
He was making the case that a more apt comparison would be Brady’s last 6 vs Mahomes first 6 due to it being the same era.
The Eras don't matter when we are talking about wins, SB victories, MVPs, and other accolades like All-Pro teams.
I started this conversation that Mahomes has started off at a historic rate, even better than Brady did, but that's not to say he's better than Brady...he has a long way to go. Comparing Brady's last 6 years to Mahomes first 6 is a completely different discussion...one which has no interest to future tracking.
I'm not... I'm talking about their last 6 seasons. Keep up. The whole "the first 6 is a valid argument" is what set this whole stupid conversation down this path.
So you've created a completely separate argument. Who are you having this with?
The entire tweet is Mahomes vs. Brady's 1st 6 years in the league. Your argument doesn't make any sense...I see now why you're so lost and most of this is not connecting.
He was making the case that a more apt comparison would be Brady’s last 6 vs Mahomes first 6 due to it being the same era.
The Eras don't matter when we are talking about wins, SB victories, MVPs, and other accolades like All-Pro teams.
I started this conversation that Mahomes has started off at a historic rate, even better than Brady did, but that's not to say he's better than Brady...he has a long way to go. Comparing Brady's last 6 years to Mahomes first 6 is a completely different discussion...one which has no interest to future tracking.
OK... you have gone full retard now... never go full retard.
uscbucsfan1 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 8:04 pm
So you've created a completely separate argument. Who are you having this with?
The entire tweet is Mahomes vs. Brady's 1st 6 years in the league. Your argument doesn't make any sense...I see now why you're so lost and most of this is not connecting.
That's the discussion here. You've provided no reason why it's idiotic. Almost all posts, outside of Bootz' OP, say outside of stats. You went into different eras like they didn't have All Pro teams, MVPs, or wins in Brady's era.
When taking out stats, Mahomes has had as good, if not a better start to his career than Brady...when adding stats, it obviously looks far more skewed.
That's the discussion you entered calling it idiotic. You haven't provided any substance to that...you just changed it.
He was making the case that a more apt comparison would be Brady’s last 6 vs Mahomes first 6 due to it being the same era.
The Eras don't matter when we are talking about wins, SB victories, MVPs, and other accolades like All-Pro teams.
I started this conversation that Mahomes has started off at a historic rate, even better than Brady did, but that's not to say he's better than Brady...he has a long way to go. Comparing Brady's last 6 years to Mahomes first 6 is a completely different discussion...one which has no interest to future tracking.
I wasn’t agreeing, I was just clarifying (before I saw you figured out what he was saying).
The Eras don't matter when we are talking about wins, SB victories, MVPs, and other accolades like All-Pro teams.
I started this conversation that Mahomes has started off at a historic rate, even better than Brady did, but that's not to say he's better than Brady...he has a long way to go. Comparing Brady's last 6 years to Mahomes first 6 is a completely different discussion...one which has no interest to future tracking.
OK... you have gone full retard now... never go full retard.
Yet, you are still incapable of articulating it...just like the HOF discussion a year ago. You just call names and have no substance.
Come on, explain why you cannot compare their starts when talking about wins, MVPs, All-Pro teams...those accolades are decided amongst their peers in the same era.
OK... you have gone full retard now... never go full retard.
Yet, you are still incapable of articulating it...just like the HOF discussion a year ago. You just call names and have no substance.
Come on, explain why you cannot compare their starts when talking about wins, MVPs, All-Pro teams...those accolades are decided amongst their peers in the same era.
You are just being obtuse here.
If you take a moment to actually read what has been said and what you are arguing about... you would find out I'm agreeing that Mahomes has had a better 6 years over the new rules era...
As to the HOF take... No... Mahomes was not in my opinion a HOF candidate at the time of that posts. You would have to let others in with similar accolades that will not be getting in.
If you go re-read that thread you will discover the same window lickers slamming my take said Mahomes should get in over Rodgers ... You really want to hitch your wagon to that group? Be my guest.
I think both Brady and Mahomes were the best players at the most important position. Both elevate their teammates more than their peers. Both - when supplied with the sufficient supporting casts - lapped the league insofar production. Brady threw for 50 TDs...in 2007. Both are clutch. Both are extremely talented, in similar and very different ways.
You're gonna lose super bowls you should win, and you're gonna win super bowls you should lose... if you make enough super bowls... Brady threw for 500 yards and 3 TDs (0 INTs) and LOST. Crazy shit. Mahomes could do the same thing and lose in 2 weeks.
Brady mounted the greatest comeback in history in the super bowl. Mahomes did something similar against against the Texans in 2020. Down 24 points. Just happened to be in the divisional round.
Both are insanely good. If Mahomes wins 6-7 rings, I'd have no problem putting him on the same tier as Tom. I think their peaks are similar. Longevity, rings, and special moments are the separator.
Yet, you are still incapable of articulating it...just like the HOF discussion a year ago. You just call names and have no substance.
Come on, explain why you cannot compare their starts when talking about wins, MVPs, All-Pro teams...those accolades are decided amongst their peers in the same era.
You are just being obtuse here.
If you take a moment to actually read what has been said and what you are arguing about... you would find out I'm agreeing that Mahomes has had a better 6 years over the new rules era...
It has nothing to do with the rules...you are the only person making that argument. I can't tell if it's because you feel dumb that you attacked with nothing to back it up or you continue to get confused.
When comparing their first 6 seasons, why can't you say Mahomes is off to a better start? Mahomes has more regular season wins, less regular season losses. More playoff wins, 1 more playoff loss...their wins are about the exact same % wise. So wins being the same, which are team stats, you look at accolades and Mahomes has been the better player to this point as an individual.
You started off that it's retarded to compare and then never could articulate why. You say the rule changes, but if you read through the thread most have agreed that pure stats are a bad way to judge. That's already been removed from the debate. Do you have substance as to why it's idiotic to compare or people are idiots that compare...or just more goalpost moving?
Snake wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 8:26 pm
I think both Brady and Mahomes were the best players at the most important position. Both elevate their teammates more than their peers. Both - when supplied with the sufficient supporting casts - lapped the league insofar production. Brady threw for 50 TDs...in 2007. Both are clutch. Both are extremely talented, in similar and very different ways.
You're gonna lose super bowls you should win, and you're gonna win super bowls you should lose... if you make enough super bowls... Brady threw for 500 yards and 3 TDs (0 INTs) and LOST. Crazy shit. Mahomes could do the same thing and lose in 2 weeks.
Brady mounted the greatest comeback in history in the super bowl. Mahomes did something similar against against the Texans in 2020. Down 24 points. Just happened to be in the divisional round.
Both are insanely good. If Mahomes wins 6-7 rings, I'd have no problem putting him on the same tier as Tom. I think their peaks are similar. Longevity, rings, and special moments are the separator.
I think part of the discussion is despite the ridiculous start, the % of sustaining it like Brady did is still incredibly low. It's been wild the last 6 years for Mahomes...he only have 17 more to go...think about how that sounds?
Deja Entendu wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 7:41 pm
Mahomes is incredible. He really is, but Brady is unequivocally the greatest QB ever.
The fact that there needs to be extrapolation and dissecting to make any sort of argument for Mahomes really helps cement the case.
Mahomes supporters want to prop up the first six years. Ok, cool: He’s off to a great start. Arguably equal or better depending on if they win this SB, and if they don’t it’ll be a worse start based on playoffs and SB wins.
Regardless of their first six years, that’s not what made Brady the greatest. Greatest of all time isn’t in a cherry picked vacuum (for either side), it’s about totality. As almost everyone he already said, Mahomes is still successful years, defining moments, playoff wins, and, of course, Super Bowl titles away from this being anything more than this…
In Agreement he has another decade+ to make his case.
But... Even When Brady had statistically eclipsed and tied super bowls with Joe in 2014. Joe was still considered the greatest until 2016.
The bar Bady set is monstrous.
I think it would be a better exercise to figure out what Mahomes would have to achieve to be considered the greatest.
I mean for starters... 8 super bowls (one more than Bady) is no fucking joke of a high mark.
I agree that’s a good exercise. I’ll have to think about it.
The rise from 199.
The comeback drives are historic. 3-28 is legendary.
7 rings is monumental.
Leaving the dynasty for a bottom feeder, and carrying them to the promise land in his first year… without an off-season? It’s almost mythical.
Snake wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 8:26 pm
I think both Brady and Mahomes were the best players at the most important position. Both elevate their teammates more than their peers. Both - when supplied with the sufficient supporting casts - lapped the league insofar production. Brady threw for 50 TDs...in 2007. Both are clutch. Both are extremely talented, in similar and very different ways.
You're gonna lose super bowls you should win, and you're gonna win super bowls you should lose... if you make enough super bowls... Brady threw for 500 yards and 3 TDs (0 INTs) and LOST. Crazy shit. Mahomes could do the same thing and lose in 2 weeks.
Brady mounted the greatest comeback in history in the super bowl. Mahomes did something similar against against the Texans in 2020. Down 24 points. Just happened to be in the divisional round.
Both are insanely good. If Mahomes wins 6-7 rings, I'd have no problem putting him on the same tier as Tom. I think their peaks are similar. Longevity, rings, and special moments are the separator.
And both took it to the league with a less than sufficient cast. Forget about those "MVP" seasons, this is Mahomes best season. Just like Brady in 2018.
If you take a moment to actually read what has been said and what you are arguing about... you would find out I'm agreeing that Mahomes has had a better 6 years over the new rules era...
It has nothing to do with the rules...you are the only person making that argument. I can't tell if it's because you feel dumb that you attacked with nothing to back it up or you continue to get confused.
When comparing their first 6 seasons, why can't you say Mahomes is off to a better start? Mahomes has more regular season wins, less regular season losses. More playoff wins, 1 more playoff loss...their wins are about the exact same % wise. So wins being the same, which are team stats, you look at accolades and Mahomes has been the better player to this point as an individual.
You started off that it's retarded to compare and then never could articulate why. You say the rule changes, but if you read through the thread most have agreed that pure stats are a bad way to judge. That's already been removed from the debate. Do you have substance as to why it's idiotic to compare or people are idiots that compare...or just more goalpost moving?
Has everything to do with the rules... We will never see another League MVP that is not a QB.
It has nothing to do with the rules...you are the only person making that argument. I can't tell if it's because you feel dumb that you attacked with nothing to back it up or you continue to get confused.
When comparing their first 6 seasons, why can't you say Mahomes is off to a better start? Mahomes has more regular season wins, less regular season losses. More playoff wins, 1 more playoff loss...their wins are about the exact same % wise. So wins being the same, which are team stats, you look at accolades and Mahomes has been the better player to this point as an individual.
You started off that it's retarded to compare and then never could articulate why. You say the rule changes, but if you read through the thread most have agreed that pure stats are a bad way to judge. That's already been removed from the debate. Do you have substance as to why it's idiotic to compare or people are idiots that compare...or just more goalpost moving?
Has everything to do with the rules... We will never see another League MVP that is not a QB.
Historically it's always been a QB domianted award. The fact is Brady wasn't a great QB from the jump compared to his peers. The 1st 3 SBs were mostly on the Pat's defense. Brady still managed the game, but he grew into the dominant passer. Almost everyone knew Manning was the better QB, but Brady had the better team. It took years for Brady to pass Manning despite his SB wins.
Mahommes would be knocked out the way he plays if it was 2000. They would have head hunted him to "send a message."
This doesn't make sense. He's bigger than Elway or Young and basically the same size as McNabb or McNair at his age.
People like to say this, but there's no logic to it. Simply because he's not getting hit like that regularly now, people assume all these players wouldn't last...when much smaller, less athletic QBs did just fine. Could you imagine someone like Jake Plummer running around and not dying prior to 2000?
Are you saying that McNabb or McNair didn't have a lot of injuries due to their play?
This doesn't make sense. He's bigger than Elway or Young and basically the same size as McNabb or McNair at his age.
People like to say this, but there's no logic to it. Simply because he's not getting hit like that regularly now, people assume all these players wouldn't last...when much smaller, less athletic QBs did just fine. Could you imagine someone like Jake Plummer running around and not dying prior to 2000?
McNair is probably the closest, and he did get absolutely destroyed in 2002 and had to change his game...
This doesn't make sense. He's bigger than Elway or Young and basically the same size as McNabb or McNair at his age.
People like to say this, but there's no logic to it. Simply because he's not getting hit like that regularly now, people assume all these players wouldn't last...when much smaller, less athletic QBs did just fine. Could you imagine someone like Jake Plummer running around and not dying prior to 2000?
Are you saying that McNabb or McNair didn't have a lot of injuries due to their play?
McNabb had 9 great seasons. Young 6, Elway 11, McNair 9. You don't think Mahomes or Allen would have survived that? It's been 6 for Mahomes and people throw it out there kike he wouldnt last a game. Thats the perplexing part when people say QB X wouldn't have made it in the 90s. Their career would have been shorter, like all QBs, but they'd be as fine as the other guys. Great talent is great talent.
He was making the case that a more apt comparison would be Brady’s last 6 vs Mahomes first 6 due to it being the same era.
The Eras don't matter when we are talking about wins, SB victories, MVPs, and other accolades like All-Pro teams.
I started this conversation that Mahomes has started off at a historic rate, even better than Brady did, but that's not to say he's better than Brady...he has a long way to go. Comparing Brady's last 6 years to Mahomes first 6 is a completely different discussion...one which has no interest to future tracking.
So Brady having a defensive minded coach that passed on 53.3% of the offensive plays compared to an offensive minded coach who passes on 59.6% of their offensive plays will have nothing to due with how that would effect Brady's accolades at all (comparing both's first 6 years)? Does that make sense at all? That would increase Brady's stats by 11.8%. That's not insignificant (for MVP and All-Pro teams he made second team one of those years).
Are you saying that McNabb or McNair didn't have a lot of injuries due to their play?
McNabb had 9 great seasons. Young 6, Elway 11, McNair 9. You don't think Mahomes or Allen would have survived that? It's been 6 for Mahomes and people throw it out there kike he wouldnt last a game. Thats the perplexing part when people say QB X wouldn't have made it in the 90s. Their career would have been shorter, like all QBs, but they'd be as fine as the other guys. Great talent is great talent.
I never said that but the chances of him getting injured is higher, and you also act like he doesn't have ankle injuries every year. He just plays through it. You also forget that horse collar tackles were still legal in 2000 which was my premise
Last edited by kaimaru on Mon Jan 29, 2024 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Eras don't matter when we are talking about wins, SB victories, MVPs, and other accolades like All-Pro teams.
I started this conversation that Mahomes has started off at a historic rate, even better than Brady did, but that's not to say he's better than Brady...he has a long way to go. Comparing Brady's last 6 years to Mahomes first 6 is a completely different discussion...one which has no interest to future tracking.
So Brady having a defensive minded coach that passed on 53.3% of the offensive plays compared to an offensive minded coach who passes on 59.6% of their offensive plays will have nothing to due with how that would effect Brady's accolades at all (comparing both's first 6 years)? Does that make sense at all? That would increase Brady's stats by 11.8%. That's not insignificant
It shows that Brady in his first years was a different Brady later on. He didn't come into the league as a stud or the GOAT. He came in as a 6th round pick with a great coach and team and developed into the best QB ever.
Mahomes started day 1 as the best QB in the league and they won mostly on his arm and legs. Hence him starting off better. At worst, it's the same. He has a chance to get his 3rd ring this year, their win% is almost identical.
Again, that's not saying he's better than Brady, just a better jump out of the gate. It's a long road to go.
McNabb had 9 great seasons. Young 6, Elway 11, McNair 9. You don't think Mahomes or Allen would have survived that? It's been 6 for Mahomes and people throw it out there kike he wouldnt last a game. Thats the perplexing part when people say QB X wouldn't have made it in the 90s. Their career would have been shorter, like all QBs, but they'd be as fine as the other guys. Great talent is great talent.
I never said that but the chances of him getting injured is higher, and you also act like he doesn't have ankle injuries every year. He just plays through it. You also forget that horse collar tackles were still legal in 2000 which was my premise
So Brady having a defensive minded coach that passed on 53.3% of the offensive plays compared to an offensive minded coach who passes on 59.6% of their offensive plays will have nothing to due with how that would effect Brady's accolades at all (comparing both's first 6 years)? Does that make sense at all? That would increase Brady's stats by 11.8%. That's not insignificant
It shows that Brady in his first years was a different Brady later on. He didn't come into the league as a stud or the GOAT. He came in as a 6th round pick with a great coach and team and developed into the best QB ever.
Mahomes started day 1 as the best QB in the league and they won mostly on his arm and legs. Hence him starting off better. At worst, it's the same. He has a chance to get his 3rd ring this year, their win% is almost identical.
Again, that's not saying he's better than Brady, just a better jump out of the gate. It's a long road to go.
It shows that Brady in his first years was a different Brady later on. He didn't come into the league as a stud or the GOAT. He came in as a 6th round pick with a great coach and team and developed into the best QB ever.
Mahomes started day 1 as the best QB in the league and they won mostly on his arm and legs. Hence him starting off better. At worst, it's the same. He has a chance to get his 3rd ring this year, their win% is almost identical.
Again, that's not saying he's better than Brady, just a better jump out of the gate. It's a long road to go.
Want to try that statement again there skippy?
No. He won MVP his first year starting. Which means he was the best QB day 1 of starting.
Brady had 18tds and 12 ints. He was in below average that year compared to other QBs.
Neither QB started their first season. That's why the stat is first 6 years starting.
Last edited by uscbucsfan1 on Mon Jan 29, 2024 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
So Brady having a defensive minded coach that passed on 53.3% of the offensive plays compared to an offensive minded coach who passes on 59.6% of their offensive plays will have nothing to due with how that would effect Brady's accolades at all (comparing both's first 6 years)? Does that make sense at all? That would increase Brady's stats by 11.8%. That's not insignificant
It shows that Brady in his first years was a different Brady later on. He didn't come into the league as a stud or the GOAT. He came in as a 6th round pick with a great coach and team and developed into the best QB ever.
Mahomes started day 1 as the best QB in the league and they won mostly on his arm and legs. Hence him starting off better. At worst, it's the same. He has a chance to get his 3rd ring this year, their win% is almost identical.
Again, that's not saying he's better than Brady, just a better jump out of the gate. It's a long road to go.
I understand that, I was just pointing out that he did have a disadvantage. Also remember that RBs and not QBs were winning MVPs back then
It shows that Brady in his first years was a different Brady later on. He didn't come into the league as a stud or the GOAT. He came in as a 6th round pick with a great coach and team and developed into the best QB ever.
Mahomes started day 1 as the best QB in the league and they won mostly on his arm and legs. Hence him starting off better. At worst, it's the same. He has a chance to get his 3rd ring this year, their win% is almost identical.
Again, that's not saying he's better than Brady, just a better jump out of the gate. It's a long road to go.
I understand that, I was just pointing out that he did have a disadvantage. Also remember that RBs and not QBs were winning MVPs back then
3 times that happened in Brady's entire career. Not in his first 4 years starting, either.
I never said that but the chances of him getting injured is higher, and you also act like he doesn't have ankle injuries every year. He just plays through it. You also forget that horse collar tackles were still legal in 2000 which was my premise
1 ankle injury and he won a SB on it.
You're saying he didn't come up gimpy in the loss to us in the Super Bowl?
uscbucsfan1 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 9:18 pm
No. He won MVP his first year starting.
Neither QB started their first season. That's why the stat is first 6 years starting.
That is not what that sentence says, and he did start a game in 2017.
Keep grasping at straws. That would be like me saying Brady only had 6 yards his first year. We started the discussion of their first 6 years starting and Mahomes started out as the best QB in the NFL in his first year starting.
