Reviewing Trask’s Tape

[Barnzy]

The other good thing is Canales doesn't really have a signature offense yet. He will be building one around/with whichever QB wins the job. I suspect Trask wins the job and Baker holds the clipboard.

I think it's going to be the other way around, Baker becomes a huge surprise as I think Goedeke solidifies RT. It sounds like I'm reaching but I'm very optimistic about this scenario.

I still think we should take a flyer on someone like Foles for insurance.

Can't say I'm as confident as you. Goedeke is another in what's become a farm of short armed OT college prospects on the Bucs roster that don't have the required measurables to play OT in the NFL. Add him to most recent picks Hainsey and Mauch as well. Plus don't forget the Bucs still have Feiler, Leverett, etc. So a good player will now miss out on playing time on the inside due to the obsession with short armed college prospects while we will have a less than ideal starter at OT.

People may say "well Licht is just picking the best player he rates at OL". Well, okay. But at some point you have to address your needs and stop picking players that need to move positions in the NFL. All of Hainsey, Goedeke and now Mauch have significant draft capital invested in them and it's not looking great so far for 2 of the 3 that have played. Hainsey was only okay last year and hasn't solidified a spot after moving from OT in College. We will see on Mauch who is moving positions also.

Solidifying RT would mean Goedeke being an above average to good starter that we don't have to worry about. In fairness, I would give him a better chance than your other prediction of Baker surprising. I'd give Baker a 5% chance of surprising, Goedeke has an uphill battle of locking down RT at 10-20% chance, IMO. He should be in the gym this offseason and then preparing to move back to the right side but not at RT, at RG. But that can't happen because the GM has done him no favors with poor planning.

[Doctor]

That there are still people who fully believe GMs must use the draft to fill perceived, momentary needs of a depth chart is astounding.

Their own posts make a better case for why drafting for need is grossly foolish than I ever could.

[GreatTimes]

That there are still people who fully believe GMs must use the draft to fill perceived, momentary needs of a depth chart is astounding.

Their own posts make a better case for why drafting for need is grossly foolish than I ever could.

After the 2020 SB loss, the KC Chiefs drafted and signed FA's for need. That need was the offensive line. Based on the results I thinks the Chiefs chose wisely.

[Central_Buc]

That there are still people who fully believe GMs must use the draft to fill perceived, momentary needs of a depth chart is astounding.

Their own posts make a better case for why drafting for need is grossly foolish than I ever could.

After the 2020 SB loss, the KC Chiefs drafted and signed FA's for need. That need was the offensive line. Based on the results I thinks the Chiefs chose wisely.

They also have Mahomes which they should be prioritizing the OL. That said though drafting for need doesn't always work.

[Sdbucs]

That there are still people who fully believe GMs must use the draft to fill perceived, momentary needs of a depth chart is astounding.

Their own posts make a better case for why drafting for need is grossly foolish than I ever could.

After the 2020 SB loss, the KC Chiefs drafted and signed FA's for need. That need was the offensive line. Based on the results I thinks the Chiefs chose wisely.

The chiefs could’ve forgone the draft entirely because Mahomes Reid and Kelce is superbowl caliber

Not a great example

[GreatTimes]

After the 2020 SB loss, the KC Chiefs drafted and signed FA's for need. That need was the offensive line. Based on the results I thinks the Chiefs chose wisely.

The chiefs could’ve forgone the draft entirely because Mahomes Reid and Kelce is superbowl caliber

Not a great example

Go back a watch the 2020 SB game. The Bucs were able to harass Mahomes all game long because they had lost 2 starting offensive linemen.

[Central_Buc]

The chiefs could’ve forgone the draft entirely because Mahomes Reid and Kelce is superbowl caliber

Not a great example

Go back a watch the 2020 SB game. The Bucs were able to harass Mahomes all game long because they had lost 2 starting offensive linemen.

Both their Tackles were out in the SB. In their draft they went C in the 2nd and G in the 5th or 6th.

It doesn't matter till the roster is set, there is a chance they will sign a RT due to cuts made by other teams. I think right now they want to try Godeke there.

[Doctor]

That there are still people who fully believe GMs must use the draft to fill perceived, momentary needs of a depth chart is astounding.

Their own posts make a better case for why drafting for need is grossly foolish than I ever could.

After the 2020 SB loss, the KC Chiefs drafted and signed FA's for need. That need was the offensive line. Based on the results I thinks the Chiefs chose wisely.

Signing FA for need- OL
Drafting for need- CEH

[Nobody]

After the 2020 SB loss, the KC Chiefs drafted and signed FA's for need. That need was the offensive line. Based on the results I thinks the Chiefs chose wisely.

Signing FA for need- OL
Drafting for need- CEH

They traded for OT Orlando Brown Jr (who was fantastic).

They drafted Center Creed Humphrey with pick 63 (who was immediately a top 3 Center in the league).

They drafted Guard Trey Smith with pick 226 (who started day one and has been fantastic).

That 2021 offseason for the Chiefs was easily one of the greatest offseasons of all time (overwhelmingly because they replaced their terrible OL with 2 very good players and a generationally good Center).

[Doctor]

They went out and got Orlando Brown, Joe Thuney, and Kyle Long during free agency. In the draft did they take one of the many OTs that were available to them? No. They traded back instead and watch them go off the board. When they were up they took a LB with their first pick.

Creed was a borlderline 1st rounder who fell and they got at the end of the 2nd every bit of a BPA and a great pick at that. Trey Smith was also a good land but trying to use a guy who was drafted at the edge of the 7th round as an example of "drafting for need" is silly. Especially considering how much they needed an OT this year (they signed our very own D Smith after the draft) and yet drafted zero OTs. Doesn't sound like a team that drafts for need does it?

[Bootz]

Signing FA for need- OL
Drafting for need- CEH

They traded for OT Orlando Brown Jr (who was fantastic).

They drafted Center Creed Humphrey with pick 63 (who was immediately a top 3 Center in the league).

They drafted Guard Trey Smith with pick 226 (who started day one and has been fantastic).

That 2021 offseason for the Chiefs was easily one of the greatest offseasons of all time (overwhelmingly because they replaced their terrible OL with 2 very good players and a generationally good Center).

I'm sure if Creed went to Northwestern Oklahoma State instead of OU Licht would've traded up without question to take Humphrey.

[Nobody]

They went out and got Orlando Brown, Joe Thuney, and Kyle Long during free agency. In the draft did they take one of the many OTs that were available to them? No. They traded back instead and watch them go off the board. When they were up they took a LB with their first pick.

Creed was a borlderline 1st rounder who fell and they got at the end of the 2nd every bit of a BPA and a great pick at that. Trey Smith was also a good land but trying to use a guy who was drafted at the edge of the 7th round as an example of "drafting for need" is silly. Especially considering how much they needed an OT this year (they signed our very own D Smith after the draft) and yet drafted zero OTs. Doesn't sound like a team that drafts for need does it?

I wasn’t engaging with whether or not their draft strategy was “need-driven” or “best prospect on board” or “some matrix of the two that is indecipherable to us from the outside.”

I was merely engaging with what seemed to be the proposition that they resolved their OL issues via FA. That is 1/3 of the story. The other 2/3 are Humphrey and Smith via draft.

Now if I were to engage with the other part, I guess I would say “why do we give credit to Licht et al (or at least not indict Licht et al for possible arbitrary expenditures of draft assets to move around in the draft) for perceived slickness of maneuvering &/or having the discipline + intel on other teams’ boards to either pull the trigger on prospects or wait to select others later…and then not extend that same assessment to the KC front office?”

One could make the claim Humphrey and Smith were extremely high on KC’s board and were simultaneously a need, but they manipulated the draft board-state because of their intel and/or extremely slick modeling of other teams’ prospective Big Boards and needs…they skillfully “got their guys” with at least as much supporting evidence as the claim of Licht et al above.

Owners spend a huge amount of capital on their front office/scouting regimes, right?Some aspect of the physical and human capital has to be dedicated to intel-gathering and modeling/inferring other team’s draft boards to inform their moves made on draft day. They aren’t consulting the oracle or dart-boarding it, right?

[Snake]

Licht giving up the 4th round pick to move up one spot and draft Wirfs.

Was it intel based? Or he just deemed the opportunity cost was worth it to ensure he got his guy.

Was Wirfs actually “his guy” or the best remaining OT of the Big 4 from that draft? If he knew Wirfs was the most likely all-pro; he probably would’ve moved up earlier and gave up more to ensure he got him.

Or did he know the collective enemy boards so well that he was willing to chance it?

So much fog-of-war to navigate.

[Buc2]

Licht giving up the 4th round pick to move up one spot and draft Wirfs.

Was it intel based? Or he just deemed the opportunity cost was worth it to ensure he got his guy.

Was Wirfs actually “his guy” or the best remaining OT of the Big 4 from that draft? If he knew Wirfs was the most likely all-pro; he probably would’ve moved up earlier and gave up more to ensure he got him.

Or did he know the collective enemy boards so well that he was willing to chance it?

So much fog-of-war to navigate.

Alas. Without being in the war room, we'll likely never know. Maybe one day he'll write a memoir.

[Doctor]

Licht giving up the 4th round pick to move up one spot and draft Wirfs.

Was it intel based? Or he just deemed the opportunity cost was worth it to ensure he got his guy.

Was Wirfs actually “his guy” or the best remaining OT of the Big 4 from that draft? If he knew Wirfs was the most likely all-pro; he probably would’ve moved up earlier and gave up more to ensure he got him.

Or did he know the collective enemy boards so well that he was willing to chance it?

So much fog-of-war to navigate.

Jason Licht mentioned on the Pewter Report Podcast that he was willing – and went as far as attempting – to move up even higher than No. 13 for Wirfs but other teams had guys they were in love with and didn't want to risk losing by trading down.

“I was stunned,” Licht said about Wirfs beginning to slide in the draft. “I saw him starting to fall. I was trying to go and get him, well, even higher than nine and nobody wanted to make any deals and I think we made the first trade of the pandemic at-home draft. There are teams but there was one in particular that I was very worried about going up to San Fran that was below us and it turned out that that was going to happen, or they were seriously considering this trade, but they didn’t want to go back that far. They were afraid of losing their guy that they took, [Javon] Kinlaw. So the fourth-round pick, that was easy for me to go and do it. If it was any less than that, they wouldn’t have taken the trade.”

[Snake]

“If it was any less than that, they wouldn’t have taken the trade”

So they say…

The rest is history, I suppose.

[Doctor]

I'm not losing sleep over it

[Snake]

2nd round pick. Three years in. One year dedicated to rebuilding mechanics from the feet up.

Couldn't beat out Gabbert for the #2 QB spot.

Couldn't beat out Baker Mayfield for the starting QB spot.

Bust ass bust.

[Doctor]

Feel better?

Still a lot left to see.

[Snake]

Feel better?

Still a lot left to see.

What left to see?

He couldn’t beat Baker Mayfield. The 29th best starting QB in the NFL.

[mdb1958]

Mayfield will get an even better chance to look good against the Ravens - with all that experience he has.

This statement is allowed to go either way, meaning I hope he does well but he just may get killed.

[acmillis]

Feel better?

Still a lot left to see.

What left to see?

He couldn’t beat Baker Mayfield. The 29th best starting QB in the NFL.

Who are the three worse quarterbacks?

[Phantom]

There’s no way Mayfield is 29th best starting QB.. maybe top 20s

15-20 is my best guess

[Snake]

What left to see?

He couldn’t beat Baker Mayfield. The 29th best starting QB in the NFL.

Who are the three worse quarterbacks?

I assume a rookie or three will struggle.

[Cheb]

Feel better?

Still a lot left to see.

What left to see?

He couldn’t beat Baker Mayfield. The 29th best starting QB in the NFL.

Maybe Trask beat him, but I doubt it really mattered.

Bowles and Cannales both preached ball security as paramount to QB success. All reports from training camp were that Trask was protecting the ball and Baker was far more turnover prone while both were making a similar amount of positive plays. Without seeing these sessions myself, I have to take those reports as somewhat reliable.

All we've seen from Baker is four preseason drives in the first game:

- 3 and out
- 3 and out
- A touchdown drive where every pass was a short dumpoff, helped immensely by an unnecessary roughness penalty on the defense for 15 yards
- A turnover on downs after 6 net yards

None of that screams undisputed starter to me, nor do I think it should have precluded him from additional preseason action beyond those four drives. Imo, announcing Baker as the starter in such circumstances smells like a competition that wasn't really a competition in the first place, but who knows.

I guess we're gonna crown Mayfield now as the starter. My opinion on that is because he's the less volatile option, and Bowles would rather squeeze through a 6 or 7 win season with his job intact than trust Trask as a relatively unknown quantity. I think that the addition of void years on future contracts and our abysmal cap management only points to that further, but I digress.

Go Bucs?

[Phantom]

What left to see?

He couldn’t beat Baker Mayfield. The 29th best starting QB in the NFL.

Maybe Trask beat him, but I doubt it really mattered.

Bowles and Cannales both preached ball security as paramount to QB success. All reports from training camp were that Trask was protecting the ball and Baker was far more turnover prone while both were making a similar amount of positive plays. Without seeing these sessions myself, I have to take those reports as somewhat reliable.

All we've seen from Baker is four preseason drives in the first game:

- 3 and out
- 3 and out
- A touchdown drive where every pass was a short dumpoff, helped immensely by an unnecessary roughness penalty on the defense for 15 yards
- A turnover on downs after 6 net yards

None of that screams undisputed starter to me, nor do I think it should have precluded him from additional preseason action beyond those four drives. Imo, announcing Baker as the starter in such circumstances smells like a competition that wasn't really a competition in the first place, but who knows.

I guess we're gonna crown Mayfield now as the starter. My opinion on that is because he's the less volatile option, and Bowles would rather squeeze through a 6 or 7 win season with his job intact than trust Trask as a relatively unknown quantity. I think that the addition of void years on future contracts and our abysmal cap management only points to that further, but I digress.

Go Bucs?

No Trask did not beat out Mayfield lol.

Yeah Trask looked great against Jets so was Wolford before he got injured!!!


But yea… Go Bucs!!! Jesus Christ

[Doctor]

We have to remember media see's a small part of practice. These coaches are way closer than we can ever be. And again, not hard to believe Baker would be more comfortable and in command than Trask at the moment. Gives us the best chance to win vs the Vikings, which is the most important thing right now.

[mdb1958]

Maybe Trask beat him, but I doubt it really mattered.

Bowles and Cannales both preached ball security as paramount to QB success. All reports from training camp were that Trask was protecting the ball and Baker was far more turnover prone while both were making a similar amount of positive plays. Without seeing these sessions myself, I have to take those reports as somewhat reliable.

All we've seen from Baker is four preseason drives in the first game:

- 3 and out
- 3 and out
- A touchdown drive where every pass was a short dumpoff, helped immensely by an unnecessary roughness penalty on the defense for 15 yards
- A turnover on downs after 6 net yards

None of that screams undisputed starter to me, nor do I think it should have precluded him from additional preseason action beyond those four drives. Imo, announcing Baker as the starter in such circumstances smells like a competition that wasn't really a competition in the first place, but who knows.

I guess we're gonna crown Mayfield now as the starter. My opinion on that is because he's the less volatile option, and Bowles would rather squeeze through a 6 or 7 win season with his job intact than trust Trask as a relatively unknown quantity. I think that the addition of void years on future contracts and our abysmal cap management only points to that further, but I digress.

Go Bucs?

No Trask did not beat out Mayfield lol.

Yeah Trask looked great against Jets so was Wolford before he got injured!!!


But yea… Go Bucs!!! Jesus Christ

Quite clearly Cheb is pointing out that it's invisible where Baker beat out Trask. (because he was not in attendance at practice).
Where it might have happened.

[Nobody]

If Trask plays this year at all, it will be because Mayfield has shit the bed or had some kind of injury.

Through 2 years, he has seen zero (real) snaps. How many Buccaneers 2nd round picks in Bucs history is that true for?

If the current trajectory holds for 2023, how many historical Buccaneers 2nd round picks have seen zero (real) snaps in their first 3 years? Lets go back 20 years and see:

Hall/Goedeke: Nope
AWJ: Nope
SMB: Nope
RJ2/MJ Stewart/CD3: Nope
Evans: Nope
Spence/Aguayo (yikes): Nope
Smith/Marpet: Nope
ASJ: Nope
Banks: Nope
LVD: Nope
Bowers: Nope
Price/Benn: Nope
Jackson: Nope
Sears/Piscitelli: Nope
Trueblood: Nope
Ruud: Nope
White: Nope

Holy hell that is a lot of bad football players in there. But most all of them played real snaps year 1 and all of them played real snaps by year 2 (which means they did by year 3). That is crazy. The Trask pick was a "WTF are we even doing here" pick at the time (given the Super Bowl window and you always desperately need OL/CB depth and potential starters). Three years later? We need to start putting this pick into historical context.

The 2020 draft was historically good (just below Brooks and Sapp probably). But 2021 and 2022...oof. Those two classes need a monster year. We'll see some early returns on this year's class with the top 3 picks featuring 2 x starters and a rotational Edge that should see a lot of sub-snaps (along with a promising late round ILB with instincts).