Been A Minute...Bucs Thoughts

[MJW]

Hey Everybody! My job responsibilities shifted a bit so I should be able to post here now and again. I hope you all have been well (even some of you politics board people!) I've basically missed two full seasons here, so I'm just going to hit some key points.

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1) I Was Wrong About Baker (But See #2 For Why It Doesn't Matter Much)
Baker is a delight. I bet against the "change in scenery/change in organization" logic when he was signed and he proved me wrong. All he's done is become one of the better QBs in the league, but more importantly, he's become the heartbeat of the organization. A true dog who plays with his hair on fire. The first Bucs quarterback maybe ever who would rather be in Tampa than anywhere else. Also, a ton of fun to watch. Folks who believed in him were correct. MJW was wrong. I love the guy.

My biggest question was if he's good enough to win a Ring with. We still don't know, and I can't hold that against him, because...

2) I Was Right About Bowles
I could go on a diatribe, but what for? I can just ask a question:

Did anybody think anything else was going to happen when he "played not to lose" and gave the ball back to Jayden Daniels with 5 minutes left? Even if you want to "play the odds" in some abstract, basically nobody had stopped Jayden Daniels all year, including us that day. And before anyone says "BucBall," Bucball don't work with the 4th worst passing D in the league. But the DC we have at HC is going to DC, not lead.

We are never winning a title with Todd Bowles. Worse, we're squandering an era where we have a really good GM (See #3), a talented roster, and a rebuilding division. With an actual head coach - not a Wade Phillips/Norv Turner coordinator cosplayer - we're a legit Superbowl contender. As it is, I'm yet again looking forward to having too much talent NOT to win the division, but not enough testicle to actually risk raising a banner that matters.

Oops, starting to diatribe. Moving on...

3) I Was Wrong About Licht (Okay, I Was Right Early...But Now I Am 100% Wrong)
Jason Licht circa 2014-2017 was one of the worst GMs in the league. But even after he won a ring, I refused to believe he'd improved at his job. My bad. He's done a damn good job first at building the 2020 Roster, and then ushering in an era where we're consistently one of the more talented teams in the league, even as the cap loomed. If this recent draft class works out half as well as it looks, "more" can easily become "most."

Doesn't mean he's perfect, and there's been some huge Ls too (paying the awful Ben Bredeson under the guise of "run it back no matter what" is a recent example). But I'm here to praise him, not bury him. Sometimes people get better at their jobs. He did. He can stay for as long as he wants.

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A Random Thought About Each (Best Guess!) Member Of The 2025 Roster:

QB (3)
QB Baker Mayfield - I've talked him up and he's deserved it. He's the lowest paid projected starting QB in the league not on a rookie deal besides Justin Fields. It's a huge advantage and it's one he could have easily put an end to this offseason, but didn't. I'm late to the bandwagon but Ride Or Die with #6.

QB Kyle Trask - Infinitely confused if OBP has real faith in him if Baker goes down, or if this is just more "Run It Back." I hope not to find out.

QB Michael Pratt - Sure, whatever. One of the major errors of the Licht era that persists is the complete apathy towards developing a 3rd quarterback. I can't remember one guy occupying that spot who had real starter upside over the last 11 years. Correct me if I'm wrong.

RB (4)
RB Bucky Irving - It's really cool I wasn't on the Buc Board when we picked him so you guys didn't hear my (alleged) rant about wanting Braelon Allen. Anywho, is Bucky Irving literally the most entertaining offensive player in Buccaneers history? Yes.

RB Rachaad White - This was one I was correct about. He's just a guy. Yes, he has decent hands, but unless we "Run It Back" with him (please don't), he's likely going to have a post-Bucs trajectory similar to Rojo.

RB Sean Tucker - Big Correct on Tucker, who I watched and loved with the Orange. I've been calling his decent career since we signed him as an UFA. No, he's not an every-down back and never will be (it's not his size so much as his "slow buildup" type style.) But dude is a league minimum third stringer who averaged six a pop last year without any huge outlier runs.

And yeah...I know...the fumbles.

RB Josh Williams - An undrafted rookie from LSU, he was a productive, albeit unspectacular college player. He interests me because his strength, like White's is catching the ball.

WR (6)
WR Mike Evans - It happened. The league caught on to how good he is. HOF guaranteed. First Ballot is close, I think. I'm not sure I've ever been as excited for a play that didn't actually matter as "that one."

WR Chris Godwin - Patriots were ready to give him the bag off of another IR stint, which sort of says it all. I'm glad we kept him. I also feel like the injuries are starting to feel like a massive missed opportunity for him and us. I'll be interested to see what OBP has in mind going forward, considering how much we've invested at the position. I'd be thrilled if he can give us at least one more "actually, Evans is the complimentary guy" type vintage Godwin season.

WR Emeka Egbuka - It took a second to process when we picked him (like the Vea pick, he was never on my radar for us.) Once I did, it was like, "Hell Yes." In a league where teams take "athletes" like Quentin Johnston and Jaelen Reagor, we took the best wide receiver in the draft, and one of the best football players period. And while blah blah blah needs, those change quickly in the NFL. Licht understanding that is why we've stayed ahead of the cap. I can't wait to see this kid cook.

WR Jalen McMillan - You'll have to take my word, but during UW's run two years ago, I found myself saying things like, "If this McMillan kid was on almost any other program, he'd be a first rounder all day long." The McMillan/Ebuka/Bucky/Otton (see below) era coming in 2 years is going to be lit.

WR Rakim Jarrett - Yeah, this would be a coup, for him to beat out some of these other guys. Those happen every year. He's in the same mold as Egbuka and McMillan. He's just a damn good receiver. His ceiling is lower (hence the UFA), but it was obvious at Maryland that if he got a chance to develop a bit, he could play in the league. I'm betting on that happening in camp this year.

WR Tez Johnson - Really, punt returner Tez Johnson. He reminds me of his former and current teammate Bucky. "Wow, below average size and measured athleticism, but damned if you don't keep making plays with the ball in your hands."

TE (4)
TE Cade Otton - I kind of figured Payne Durham was drafted to succeed Otton. That still wouldn't be a terrible plan in terms of passing game weapons (since it would elevate Culp, who I love.) BUT, Otton is also a solid blocker, and Durham is not. Unless he's got some ridiculous number in mind, I love the idea of paying him market value for what he is - a well-rounded, dependable three down tight end. I've always felt guys like that were underrated because of the fantasy football effect, but I digress.

TE Payne Durham - It's tough to have complaints about Liam Coen (besides his exit), but one of the minor ones was lack of Payne Durham usage. I really think he has some untapped upside as a weapon. We'll see.

TE Ko Kieft - I took my son to his first Bucs game ever last year, against the Chiefs. The outcome stunk, but our seats were awesome (Ryan Miller could have tossed that TD ball to us.) Anyway, the only player my son cheered for louder than Baker was Ko Kieft. I'm not cutting our one-trick rhino.

TE Devin Culp - If you told me he'd be getting major playing time, I'd tell you everyone was about to know his name. I would love to see this kid work on those seam routes. His blocking will have to improve a bit for anything but deep usage though. If it does, and he sees the field, good luck covering him with your 5th best defender.

(OL) (9)
OT - Tristan Wirfs - I've seen enough shit to appreciate a Hall Of Fame Left Tackle, thank you very much. Also, spiking the ball, but thanks to the Browns and Jets too. Sometimes being trash organizations is just making mistakes like that one.

OG - Ben Bredeson - Fuck he's bad. Besides the "run it back" thing, his re-signing REEKED of, "checked the box so we can move on!" type thinking. I get not wanted to have to trust Sua Opeta/Elijah Klein. Again, I've lived through enough hilariously bad guard play to see the appeal of "Really bad, but not historically bad" Ben Bredeson. But man, there were other ways to go about this. Being better than, say, Caleb Benenoch should not get you a new contract.

OC - Graham Barton - His rookie year was more uneven than most acknowledge, but it's obvious why he was picked, and it's obvious that he's only scratching the surface. Like Egbuka this year, just a baller.

OG - Cody Mauch - First and not last Pro Bowl comin' this year. Bookmark.

OT - Luke Goedeke - I'm not going to lie. Like 99% of fans, I have a habit of drawing conclusions about young players. Worse, if they're bad conclusions, I have the habit of closing the book and moving on. Goedeke cured me. More amazingly, how often is a guy total ass at guard but a friggin' stud tackle? Is there like one other example you can think of? Good for him. Crow Eating. Apologies Offered. Pay The Man.

OL - Charlie Heck - A former 4th round pick who (like pretty much ever Texans lineman since Duane Brown) failed to develop. A perfect fit for the traditional Justin Skule role. Unlike Justin Skule, I don't hope he gets AIDS.

OL - Elijah Klein - Klein edges out Sua Opeta for this job. I actually had a pretty good grade on Klein heading into his draft. He had to get stronger as I recall. Maybe he did?

OL - Jake Majors - I had a late 4th round grade on him. Also, I...I don't know who else could be the backup center?

OT - Garret Greenfield - It would be easier to put him on the Taxi Squad (as we Boomers call it), but I honestly think someone would sign him. I could even see him bumping Heck out of a job. I dunno, look him up at South Dakota State. Maybe I'm overrating against bad competition?


Three Point Stance In Base Defense (I Think) (Sometimes?) (6)
DL VIta Vea - Another memory from that Chiefs game: Vita running over to his wife and baby after warm-ups and giving them a big hug and kiss. I assume this is something our home fans have seen many times. Anyway, tell me he has 3-5 more healthy years, and I'll tell you where to find a Hall Of Famer. Hell, want to put it another way? We traded out of the Josh Allen spot and ended up with Vea. I have not for one second run that hypothetical in my head because Vita is untouchable.

DL Logan Hall - His nickname for two years was "Did Logan Hall play today?" But there was major growth last year. He produced as a pass rusher. You knew about the 5.5 sacks. Did you know he was in the top 25% of pressures by an interior lineman last year? I'm kinda talking myself into a Pro Bowl Prop Bet here.

DL Calijah Kancey - I know you think I've been blowing sunshine up your ass, but please take this one seriously: I think this is the next superstar defensive tackle. The metrics agree. Now he just needs to stay on the field.

DL Greg Gaines - He's the Pat O' Connor of Clinton McDonalds.

DL C.J. Brewer - He's the Greg Gaines of blah blah blah.

DL Elijah Roberts - He could easily end up on the next list too. I know I've been shitting on Head Coach Todd Bowles, mainly because that asshole makes Wade Phillips look like Bum Phillips. But DEFENSIVE COORDINATOR Todd Bowles (also, you're doing great at both jobs coach, never let them tell you otherwise) will do some cool stuff with a guy like this and I look forward to it.

DL Nash Hutmacher - Everybody's talking about Desmond Watson, and I love the story (and the person - you can't handle being called a fat sack of crap better than he has at his age), but the actual undrafted rookie defensive tackle who'll suit up on Sundays? The Husker. He has the exact profile of the kind of B-, strong as hell, will surprise you with a sack once a month, scheme versatile defensive lineman who plays ten years for the Steelers.

Two Point Rusher Types, ETC (5)
EDGE YaYa Diaby - I'm hoping he comes into camp lighter. He's listed at 270. Assuming that's roughly correct, I'd love to see him closer to 250. He has strength to spare. He needs that split second that separates pressures from sacks. JMHO.

EDGE Haason Reddick - A really, really good gamble at the price, with no long-term ramifications if he washes out. Not thrilled about skipping OTAs, though. Bad look when you're trying to convince the world you're about ball (yes, his right, etc.)

EDGE Chris Braswell - He's still the guy I thought he was going into the process last year. He's athletic and tenacious enough to notch coverage sacks. He's capable of getting hot if the blocking is favorable. Even though scouts said it was an issue, I thought he was pound-for-pound the best edge-setter in the class. I still think if he puts all that together, the ceiling wasn't worth a 2nd Rounder. Hope I'm wrong.

EDGE David Walker - I love pass rushers like this. He's always going to have a leverage advantage. He's going to make tackles nervous. I could legitimately see him knocking Braswell off the roster. But one thing at time.

EDGE Anthony Nelson - Very much on the bubble with this influx of talent, but I know Bowles is a fan. I'm hoping he continues his career trajectory of, "Wow, did you know this dude played here for over a decade?" type solid anonymity.

Off The Ball Types (Never liked that phrase) (4)
LB Lavonte David - I'm going to say this gently, but firmly: LVD being far and way the best linebacker on this roster, at this point of his career, is more a failure of management than an affirmation of his greatness. But it doesn't need affirming. He was probably a Hall Of Famer 3 years ago. Now he's running up the score. You love to see it. But you'd also love an actual investment in an heir apparent.

LB Anthony Walker - The fucking Ryan Neal factor is off the charts. This guy was clearly garbage last year. Unlike Neal, PFF acknowledges this (he had a lower score with them than K.J. Britt, who was so fucking slow he's probably still packing his locker.) But still, dorks will try to gaslight me into thinking he's a good player, or Todd Bowles is going to use the phrase-that-pays that turns him into a real boy.

LB SirVocea Dennis - He is the platonic ideal of himself. I mean that. If you were to tell me to conjure up a 6'0 230 lbs linebacker who wasn't a great athlete but we drafted him in the 5th Round anyway, it would basically be this guy. Hopefully, the Timmy-vs-Jimmy battle between him and Walker will inspire Licht to swing a trade to fill the last "Are you fucking kidding with this shit?" spot on the roster. Hopefully.

LB Deion Jones - I really don't want to carry four here. The thing is, the variance in roles after LVD is SO extreme. Plus, linebackers are your special teamers. Were I running the Bucs (I've been good thus far!), I'd give LVD some lifetime contract thing so we didn't have to wonder. I'd cut Walker and Jones. I'd make a call to the Jets about Quincy Williams. Yeah, I know, the brother factor. But that's life, kids. Anyway, he's an UFA after the season with two void years begging to be renegotiated. The Jets are going fucking nowhere. I offer them a 3rd.

Defensive Backs (9)
CB Jamel Dean - Big farewell tour energy. It's been real. Lotta highs, some WTF moments. Hell of a run for a dude who entered the league with two blown knees. Hopefully he can put it together one more time. Alternatively, doesn't he seem like PRIME trade-bait in camp? Looking at the rest of the roster? Maybe for a linebacker? See above?

CB Zyon McCollum - Man, if you do the math, Licht/Bowles (and before that, just Licht) have to be the best defensive back evaluators in the league, right? Here's just some 5th rounder from a Clown College and oh, two years later, he's one of the best corners in the league.

CB Jacob Parrish - I'm really enjoying the Bowles era tradition of, "we're going to take a Day Two defensive back who is just going to wreck all your plans." Boy I wish we could just gently nudge him into the DC role. Alas. Anyway, Parrish eating in this system will be the least surprising thing ever.

CB Benjamin Morrison - And in a year, it would be zero surprise if Morrison was a our best corner. I swear, Bowles reminds me of when you could "hire" assistant coaches in Madden for positional stat buffs. Bowles would be 99 for defensive backs.

S Antoine Winfield Jr - Just stay healthy kid. Hell, throttle back a bit. You've got lots of help. They don't all have to be fastballs. Sorry for the mixed metaphors.

S Christian Izien - The Tykee Smith Beta Program. Very similar, just a little bit worse. He'd probably never play meaningful snaps anywhere else, but he's another in a drawer full of Swiss-Army knives.

S Kaevon Merriwether - It seemed like the light was coming on last year. He has a angle - this is not the biggest room of safeties. He's no giant at 6'0 207, but at least he can ride all the rides as Six Flags.

DB Tykee Smith - Literally a season worthy of DROY contention, yet like the 5th DB I thought of. I remember trotting out Myron Lewis and E.J. Biggers and Cody Grimm (no, he wasn't good - there's always one guy who insists he's good.)

DB Josh Hayes - Our defensive backs are an experiment in greatness. This asshole is the control group.

Specialists (3)
K Chase McLaughlin - Another trend I'm enjoying: us signing some NPC Kicker and him having a career year. Hopefully McLaughlin can keep it rolling now that he got paid.

P Riley Dixon - Unfortunately, the NPC punters always stay NPC punters. Will Dixon break the streak? Yeah, I'm sure the ball will travel better in 100% humidity than it did in (checks notes) Denver.

LS Evan Deckers - I wonder if they noticed him while scouting Graham Barton at Duke.

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Anyway, glad to be back kinda!

- MJW 05/29/25

[Central_Buc]

Long time no talk. Welcome back.

I agree, if Klein wins the job we have our O-line set for a number of years and it'll just be changing out depth players. I remember in last years draft what they said about Klein was that he was very nasty in college and brings that mentality. I would expect some rookie mistakes this year though.

That's just my opinion though, there are some on here that do not like the current make up of the line or they think it's supposed to all come together with the snap of a finger despite inserting rookies for 3 straight years.

[Grahamburn]

It’s a glorious day. Welcome back!

Incredible effort and love the humility.

[Jonny]

I was a Baker skeptic as well, now turned fan. Guy has some erratic in him still, but I like that he's not throwing a check down in desperation time when plays need to be made. He's not out there to be a good guy that throws good ball like Justin Herbert.

Agree with you on Bowles. This is his last year if we yet again barely win the division and exit the playoffs in first round.

Also the DC Bowles might do something cool with young pass rushers, but I have lost faith in him as a secondary coach that plays to his players' strengths. Tired of seeing physically gifted corners give 10+ yds of cushion and turning most pass plays into a pitch and catch session. In 2019 and 20 he was okay giving up the big plays and believed in a risk taking approach involving press-man a lot. Since 21 he has been getting more and more risk averse with bend but don't break playstyle that doesn't give up big plays. He may still throw some exotic blitzes, but this is no longer the man that rejuvenated Bucs defense after the dark decade. At one point, the 2024 Bucs defense seemed almost as inept as 2011 defense even though there is a lot more talent.

[Snake]

[Bootz]

Mary Jane has come home! Welcome back, your presence has definitely been missed around here.

[Doctor]

She has returned!! Welcome back, you have been missed.

I don't get the Bredeson hate on here. We always hate the idea of handing youngins jobs. Ben signed the most JAGgy of JAG contracts, 3/$21M. The OG position is VERY much up for grabs if Klein or anyone else can take it. Which I think is a secret hope of the coaching staff, but it has to be earned.

If it is, if it isn't, if it takes awhile, either way we know for a fact Ben will and should be here at least this year and next. Pace car. Mile marker. Floor depth. Whatever you want to call it.

Say Klein develops into everything we hoped for and steals the job midway and is a beast.... And then blows out a knee.

Bet your bottom dollar we'll be overjoyed having Ben step back in there over "other no name JAG who has zero chemistry with the OL but was a couple million cheaper".

[__Chef__]

@MJW

Mary Jane Freaking Watson! Welcome back!!!!

[Buc2]

Hey Everybody! My job responsibilities shifted a bit so I should be able to post here now and again. I hope you all have been well (even some of you politics board people!) I've basically missed two full seasons here, so I'm just going to hit some key points.

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3) I Was Wrong About Licht (Okay, I Was Right Early...But Now I Am 100% Wrong)
Jason Licht circa 2014-2017 was one of the worst GMs in the league. But even after he won a ring, I refused to believe he'd improved at his job. My bad. He's done a damn good job first at building the 2020 Roster, and then ushering in an era where we're consistently one of the more talented teams in the league, even as the cap loomed. If this recent draft class works out half as well as it looks, "more" can easily become "most."

Doesn't mean he's perfect, and there's been some huge Ls too (paying the awful Ben Bredeson under the guise of "run it back no matter what" is a recent example). But I'm here to praise him, not bury him. Sometimes people get better at their jobs. He did. He can stay for as long as he wants.

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Anyway, glad to be back kinda!

- MJW 05/29/25

First of all, again, welcome back.

Now, on to your post.

I'm only going to comment on the Licht bit. I don't know if you remember, but I cautioned you and everyone else that was dumping on Licht in those first 3-4 years to give him a chance to grow into the job...to learn it's ins and outs before you throw him away. His was basically a new tree, but he did have some positive pedigree in his lineage from Arizona and New England. I saw enough in his early years with the Bucs to believe he could be the GM he became. Like I told you back then, I understood why you felt the way you did but, that I believed you and others were being premature in your desire to reset at that position.

All I will say now is I'm glad I was right and you were wrong about Licht.

[Cheb]

Glad to see you back MJW. Loved the writeup, and I agree with most of it.

I think you're sleeping on OT Ben Chukwuma not making the 53. The Bucs gave him the most guaranteed money for a UDFA contract in the NFL this year, and he has potential in spades with very little experience under his belt. He's one of only three tackles last season to not give up a sack to Mike Green, who led the nation in sacks and was a second round pick by the Ravens.

[CannonFire]

I think anyone saying they were right or wrong about Licht as a GM, is either pumping their chest too hard or admitting defeat too soon. I don't think he's a terrible GM, but I don't think he's all that great either. I would call him "ok". We all know that his first few drafts were crap, but let's not pretend that ever since, he's been great.

Let's also be willing to realize that if Tom Brady doesn't sign here, Jason Licht is likely fired after the 2020 or 2021 season. I know, "he brought Brady here"... yeah, sorry, that's too much credit. Let's not pretend that if the Bears weren't stupid, Brady was going to Chicago. Also, if I recall, we weren't even his second choice... that though, is me trying to go off of memory. Let's also not pretend that guys like Gronk and Fournette came here because of Brady, not Licht. Yeah, Licht signed the contracts but again, let's be honest and understand that when the players signed, they knew they were signing for less money for a chance to win with Brady.

If the Bears were smart enough to dump Trubisky and sign Brady, there's a very good chance that guys like Jensen are released, guys like JPP & Suh aren't re-signed, and we're looking at a full re-build. This is why I say, he's probably fired in 2020 or 2021. To note, he probably drafts Jordan Love in 2020 which means no Tristan Wirfs. Keep that in mind. If he finds a free agent QB instead (still drafts Wirfs), the best case scenario is Philip Rivers.

Given his track record in the draft, Licht's future would look grim.
- 2017, Godwin was the only good player in that draft.
- 2018, Was a great draft where we got Vea, Dean, and Cappa
- 2019, "Ok", at best. White was a 1-year wonder and that's it. Dean was the only markedly good player. Guys like Edawards, SMB, and Nelson are nothing more than JAGS.
- 2020, GREAT draft.
- 2021, As bad as 2020 was "great".
- 2022, Pretty decent. Geodeke looks like a quality RT, Otton's a serviceable TE, and White's a backup RB.
... TBD on '23 & '24.

Again, it's not "terrible", it's not "great" either. He's "ok".

I'm not a big fan of his contracts either. Again, not "terrible", but not "great" either... just "ok". I think we can do better. Can we do worse? Sure, but to say that we have a good or great GM, is well, quite generous.

[__Chef__]

...He's one of only three tackles last season to not give up a sack to Mike Green, who led the nation in sacks and was a second round pick by the Ravens.

Excellent point I didn't know about. We've certainly had good results with our OL coaches in getting exceptional improvement from our young linemen. I just hope we don't make the same mistake the Vikings did in thinking they could sneak a promising young Donald Penn onto their practice squad without getting snatched up by another team.

[Selmon Rules]

Welcome back @MJW

[__Chef__]

I think anyone saying they were right or wrong about Licht as a GM, is either pumping their chest too hard or admitting defeat too soon...

Some really good points here. Agreed overall on Licht. I'd say he's a B+ class GM. Yeah, he hits on random gems in the draft, but he has his fair share of mind numbingly questionable moves as well. Contractually, he's bottom-tier. I will give him this: when he does whiff on a pick, he's able to put his pride aside and move on.

I get the feeling OBP is leaning more on making sure it's a nice place to work rather than a franchise focused on winning a championship. That's not the worst thing in the world in building something that people are happy to be a part of, but it's also not the ultimate goal. How much of this is on Licht is an unknown ... at least to me.

For as much as we look to our OL & WR coaches as having success in molding young talent to produce on the field, the same cannot be said for the other side of the field. Far too often we've seen little to no progress in young defenders elevating their play. This should have resulted in serious discussions with Bowles to find better young position coaches to get the most out of whoever we're able to roster.

[Grahamburn]

That’s a lot of “what ifs” to discredit someone.

Good grief.

Maybe focus on the what was and is.

[Bootz]

I think anyone saying they were right or wrong about Licht as a GM, is either pumping their chest too hard or admitting defeat too soon...

I get the feeling OBP is leaning more on making sure it's a nice place to work rather than a franchise focused on winning a championship. That's not the worst thing in the world in building something that people are happy to be a part of, but it's also not the ultimate goal. How much of this is on Licht is an unknown ... at least to me.

Can’t emphasize how true this is. It feels like we try hard to speak about player character and having good people in the building, almost bragging that we’re willing to sacrifice talent to get high character guys. That’s nice and all, but ultimately the goal should be championship 1st. Does it feel like we are closer to that goal this year than we were last year or the year before? Not really.

[BucsNBills]

Licht doesn't really have much more to prove imo. Especially to anyone on this board.

He already assembled a stacked Super Bowl winning roster and could be on the verge of another.

We're in great cap shape now and in the future. We don't have any albatross contracts to lug around for years to come. Licht hasn't pissed away future draft assets like every one of our divisional rivals have done.

The Bucs are a zero drama team and basically any mention of the Bucs in the media is done in a positive light.

Other than winning ANOTHER Super Bowl, what the fuck more do ya'll want from Licht? I mean outside of Howie and maybe Veach, there really aren't any other GM's that are strictly better than Licht.

[__Chef__]

I get the feeling OBP is leaning more on making sure it's a nice place to work rather than a franchise focused on winning a championship. That's not the worst thing in the world in building something that people are happy to be a part of, but it's also not the ultimate goal. How much of this is on Licht is an unknown ... at least to me.

Can’t emphasize how true this is. It feels like we try hard to speak about player character and having good people in the building, almost bragging that we’re willing to sacrifice talent to get high character guys. That’s nice and all, but ultimately the goal should be championship 1st. Does it feel like we are closer to that goal this year than we were last year or the year before? Not really.

Yep.

Also, it isn't so much of making sure to avoid potential "problem personalities", it's this sense of "this is good enough". Granted, we don't want changes just to have changes, but man, don't tell me Bowels' old coaching buddies are the best in the business. Ditto our LB room, TEs, Bredeson, or Trask.

Like you said earlier, this "run it back"/"good enough" mentality when they aren't nearly good enough to assume such a thing.
OBP needs some accountability, not attaboys for mediocrity.

[Buc2]

Licht doesn't really have much more to prove imo. Especially to anyone on this board.

He already assembled a stacked Super Bowl winning roster and could be on the verge of another.

We're in great cap shape now and in the future. We don't have any albatross contracts to lug around for years to come. Licht hasn't pissed away future draft assets like every one of our divisional rivals have done.

The Bucs are a zero drama team and basically any mention of the Bucs in the media is done in a positive light.

Other than winning ANOTHER Super Bowl, what the fuck more do ya'll want from Licht? I mean outside of Howie and maybe Veach, there really aren't any other GM's that are strictly better than Licht.

People be looking for that mythological A+ GM.

[CannonFire]

Some people have a problem with being objective. For those of you, do me a favor and answer the question I pose after the following....

Y1: Hire new HC - Win 2 games
Y2: Draft QB#1 overall - win 6 games
Y3: Fire HC and replace him with OC - Win 9 games
Y4: Keep HC/QB - Win 5 games
Y5: Ditto
Y6: Fire HC, keep QB - Win 7 games (happily, let #1 QB walk at season's end)

6-year resume: 34-62 record, 1 winning season, 0 playoff appearances, 3 different HC's, and picked QB #1 overall... was a bust.

Here's the question:

Give me a list of GM's with that resume who see Year 7? I'd be impressed if you gave me a list that even got to Year 6.

[CannonFire]

@Chef @Bootz

Agreed. I think we have an ownership group who likes "safe". We have an "ok" GM, and "ok" HC, and an "ok" QB. All 3 are likeable people who produce "ok" results (2 years 19-17 record... 1-2 playoffs). That's safe. You'll have enough people who will be content with "ok" that will criticize those for wanting better, and the team will stay the coarse without ever really trying to build a winner.

[Bootz]

Licht doesn't really have much more to prove imo. Especially to anyone on this board.

He already assembled a stacked Super Bowl winning roster and could be on the verge of another.

We're in great cap shape now and in the future. We don't have any albatross contracts to lug around for years to come. Licht hasn't pissed away future draft assets like every one of our divisional rivals have done.

The Bucs are a zero drama team and basically any mention of the Bucs in the media is done in a positive light.

Other than winning ANOTHER Super Bowl, what the fuck more do ya'll want from Licht? I mean outside of Howie and maybe Veach, there really aren't any other GM's that are strictly better than Licht.

People be looking for that mythological A+ GM.

I’d take a B. We’ve been stuck at a C now for the last few seasons. Mostly average. Not too bad. But not a true threat.

[__Chef__]

@Chef @Bootz

Agreed. I think we have an ownership group who likes "safe". We have an "ok" GM, and "ok" HC, and an "ok" QB. All 3 are likeable people who produce "ok" results (2 years 19-17 record... 1-2 playoffs). That's safe. You'll have enough people who will be content with "ok" that will criticize those for wanting better, and the team will stay the coarse without ever really trying to build a winner.

I mean, I'd say Licht has done better than average-ish. I'm not looking to fire the guy, but I am looking for him to honestly look at the results and say: "This isn't good enough ... here's how we are going to be meaningfully better next year."

Instead, the current mentality doesn't aim for Superbowls, it says, "hey, we won the division" ... as if that's the goal.

[Buc2]

People be looking for that mythological A+ GM.

I’d take a B. We’ve been stuck at a C now for the last few seasons. Mostly average. Not too bad. But not a true threat.

No way. At least a B. C’s don’t put together SB winning rosters, imo.

[Bootz]

I’d take a B. We’ve been stuck at a C now for the last few seasons. Mostly average. Not too bad. But not a true threat.

No way. At least a B. C’s don’t put together SB winning rosters, imo.

That roster was put together 5 years ago and done so VERY differently. We took chances. Made bold moves and a lot of them. Didn’t sit on our hands and say “that’s good enough”. We actually tried to be a Superbowl winning team.

How many years we gonna sit on that Superbowl win? It’s up to 5 now.

[Kona]

Good to see you posting again @MJW, welcome back!

[mdb1958]

NFL.com says we got the 7th most well rounded roster.

[BucsNBills]

We already have an elite offense. We needed help on defense, and we got it.

Let's maybe see a game or two in 2025 before we decide that we're just trying to be "good enough".

[Jonny]

I think anyone saying they were right or wrong about Licht as a GM, is either pumping their chest too hard or admitting defeat too soon. I don't think he's a terrible GM, but I don't think he's all that great either. I would call him "ok". We all know that his first few drafts were crap, but let's not pretend that ever since, he's been great.

Let's also be willing to realize that if Tom Brady doesn't sign here, Jason Licht is likely fired after the 2020 or 2021 season. I know, "he brought Brady here"... yeah, sorry, that's too much credit. Let's not pretend that if the Bears weren't stupid, Brady was going to Chicago. Also, if I recall, we weren't even his second choice... that though, is me trying to go off of memory. Let's also not pretend that guys like Gronk and Fournette came here because of Brady, not Licht. Yeah, Licht signed the contracts but again, let's be honest and understand that when the players signed, they knew they were signing for less money for a chance to win with Brady.

If the Bears were smart enough to dump Trubisky and sign Brady, there's a very good chance that guys like Jensen are released, guys like JPP & Suh aren't re-signed, and we're looking at a full re-build. This is why I say, he's probably fired in 2020 or 2021. To note, he probably drafts Jordan Love in 2020 which means no Tristan Wirfs. Keep that in mind. If he finds a free agent QB instead (still drafts Wirfs), the best case scenario is Philip Rivers.

Given his track record in the draft, Licht's future would look grim.
- 2017, Godwin was the only good player in that draft.
- 2018, Was a great draft where we got Vea, Dean, and Cappa
- 2019, "Ok", at best. White was a 1-year wonder and that's it. Dean was the only markedly good player. Guys like Edawards, SMB, and Nelson are nothing more than JAGS.
- 2020, GREAT draft.
- 2021, As bad as 2020 was "great".
- 2022, Pretty decent. Geodeke looks like a quality RT, Otton's a serviceable TE, and White's a backup RB.
... TBD on '23 & '24.

Again, it's not "terrible", it's not "great" either. He's "ok".

I'm not a big fan of his contracts either. Again, not "terrible", but not "great" either... just "ok". I think we can do better. Can we do worse? Sure, but to say that we have a good or great GM, is well, quite generous.

I cannot disagree a ton. His track record has improved year over year, and Bucs certainly are the best drafters within the division. But there was some luck involved in him sustaining his job.

Trading for JPP and signing diamond in the rough Shaq Barrett gave him a lifeline. Licht's horrible decision of drafting ultra flawed Devin White over Josh Allen (Jags) got masked thanks to Shaq Barrett becoming the best defensive end for that year.

Missing on our first round picks in back to back years in 21 and 22 hasn't helped. I know jury is still out on Logan Hall, but there are many games where you don't even know he played. That has been his impact.

His drafts are a far cry from what the Eagles and Ravens do year after year. But he has done enough to amass some under the radar superstar talent.

[__Chef__]

... We needed help on defense, and we got it...

Perhaps.

We acquired possibilities, nothing surefire. Our linebacker room is still stocked to the ceiling on "maybe" and "hopefully".

[CannonFire]

@Chef @Bootz

Agreed. I think we have an ownership group who likes "safe". We have an "ok" GM, and "ok" HC, and an "ok" QB. All 3 are likeable people who produce "ok" results (2 years 19-17 record... 1-2 playoffs). That's safe. You'll have enough people who will be content with "ok" that will criticize those for wanting better, and the team will stay the coarse without ever really trying to build a winner.

I mean, I'd say Licht has done better than average-ish. I'm not looking to fire the guy, but I am looking for him to honestly look at the results and say: "This isn't good enough ... here's how we are going to be meaningfully better next year."

Instead, the current mentality doesn't aim for Superbowls, it says, "hey, we won the division" ... as if that's the goal.

I'm not saying we should fire him, I think he's ok. I'm simply saying that if you had the opinion a long time ago that we have a good/great GM... you're wrong. Similarly, if you said he sucked and we should get rid of him... well, you would be wrong too.

I think he's "ok". Of all the things you've said positive about Licht, you realize that in 11 seasons with him as the GM, our franchise still has a losing record and in 11 years, we only had ONE, where we won more than 1 playoff game.

[Grahamburn]

Some people have a problem with being objective. For those of you, do me a favor and answer the question I pose after the following....

Y1: Hire new HC - Win 2 games
Y2: Draft QB#1 overall - win 6 games
Y3: Fire HC and replace him with OC - Win 9 games
Y4: Keep HC/QB - Win 5 games
Y5: Ditto
Y6: Fire HC, keep QB - Win 7 games (happily, let #1 QB walk at season's end)

6-year resume: 34-62 record, 1 winning season, 0 playoff appearances, 3 different HC's, and picked QB #1 overall... was a bust.

Here's the question:

Give me a list of GM's with that resume who see Year 7? I'd be impressed if you gave me a list that even got to Year 6.

What’s your point? Should have fired him before he built a Super Bowl team and perennial playoff contender out of scraps?

Brilliant stuff.

[BucsNBills]

What should Licht have done this off-season in order to prove he's trying to win a Super Bowl?

List the moves, specifically.

[Barnzy]

The run it back mantra is definitely a Licht blind spot. He fell in love with the idea and the phrase after they won the SB and re-signed everyone. It was all over bucs media and people were saying he deserves another boat parade for just re-signing his own players and I think it's got to his head. He knows that praise is now coming every offseason for his retention rates.

If you're re-signing all of the same players, how are you improving your squad and weaknesses besides the draft? And I think it's too unreliable to rely just on draft picks to lift your squad from good to the required great to win a SB. This is why the Reddick signing and performance could define this Bucs season. The one serious swing they took.

To add to the Bredeson re-signing is Anthony Nelson. He's not a terrible player but we know what he is by now and we give this guy 500+ snaps at edge and then wonder why our pass rush is so bad. If we're trying to improve the DL play he shouldn't be playing a lot and thus I wouldn't have offered the 10mil / 2. Gaines too is in his 3rd year at the Bucs. What does he offer to keep getting re-signed. Why can't he be improved upon? He's regressed from the player he used to be yet we keep still handing him 3.5mil for just showing up.

[Buc2]

No way. At least a B. C’s don’t put together SB winning rosters, imo.

That roster was put together 5 years ago and done so VERY differently. We took chances. Made bold moves and a lot of them. Didn’t sit on our hands and say “that’s good enough”. We actually tried to be a Superbowl winning team.

How many years we gonna sit on that Superbowl win? It’s up to 5 now.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on whether Licht should remain GM or not. I think he should.