Baker Mayfield: PAID

[BucsNBills]

“Listed alphabetically” lulz

I was trying to not hurt your feelings... and I'm the bad guy. Such as life.

If I could pick any guy to be our QB this year, this is the order I'd take them.

Rk Player
1 Patrick Mahomes
2 Joe Burrow
3 Josh Allen
4 Lamar Jackson
5 Justin Herbert
6 Brock Purdy
7 Jalen Hurts
8 Jared Goff
9 C.J. Stroud
10 Jaylen Daniels
11 Matthew Stafford
12 Aaron Rodgers
13 Dak Prescott
14 Tua Tagovailoa
15 Sam Darnold
16 Kirk Cousins
17 Russell Wilson
18 Kyler Murray
19 Trevor Lawrence
20 Baker Mayfield

This is a completely unserious list. You don't really believe this, but you're so dug into the shtick that you can't back out now.

[Sooner06]

One thing i will agree with CF about: almost all QBs are overpaid right now. i don't think any QB is worth more than $45M/yr except Mahomes and Josh Allen.

I have to disagree on three levels, not all of which you're addressing here. But I want to be clear on these points:

I don't think "Overpaid" exists in the macro sense. IE, "Athletes are overpaid while school teachers make pennies." Trying to apply normative values to market forces is Quixotic (I don't think you're making that argument.)

If you mean "Overpaid" in the sense that they take up an illogical amount of the salary cap space when weighed against their relative importance to success, that's silly (I don't think you're making that argument either.)

The argument I think you're making is that SPECIFIC quarterbacks are being overpaid relative to their SPECIFIC ability to help a team win. This is partially true. There are absolutely specific quarterbacks being paid well above "replacement level" salaries to provide replacement level or below results. Some likely candidates this year: Russell Wilson, Kirk Cousins (obviously), Sam Darnold, Kyler Murray, Brock Purdy (I don't think this is true, but some do), Justin Fields, Tua, Daniel Jones/Anthony Richardson, Trevor Lawrence, and Geno Smith.

Here's my stumbling block - this is a league where one bad season can get everyone fired. The most common way teams have a bad season? Horrible QB play. Look at Antonio Pierce with the Raiders last year. He decided to play the long game with the position, signing a high-level backup (Minshew) to compete with a young backup (O'Connell.) The result? Unemployment.

In other words, entering a season without anyone on the roster who can even theoretically elevate your success level is a great way to get fired. I bet Pierce and Tom Telesco wish they'd been a hell of a lot more aggressive in "overpaying" somebody now (yeah, they didn't have a lot of great options last year, but it doesn't change the point in any way.)

Yeah, that's pretty much it. Imo, when your QB is getting paid up to or more than 20% of your total cap, he better be able to give you something more than average play. If all they can give you is average-to-below average play, it's the height of stupidity to pay them that much. And that list you have there, those guys are all in the 'average-to-below-average' level.


The Raiders and Antonio Pierce are a special case. Mark Davis is a special kind of stupid owner. Won't get into all the history (you can basically just google it), but his decision to make Antonio Pierce the HC was just dumb, but it was a decision he forced himself into because of all the dumb decisions he made since firing Gruden. Then they hired an unproven OC, then they decided to try and make everything work with Minshew, who is at best a decent backup, but not a quality starter. That was a tire fire before they played one game, and Pierce was cooked before he was even hired.

I mean, mark Davis really looked at the AFC-W HC situation, saw Andy and Sean, two SB-winning coaches with pedigrees a mile long, and said to himself, "a rookie HC is good enough to beat those guys!" nice going, dumbass.

But yeah, he probably does regret not going after a better QB. Did he have to pay $50M/yr to keep his job? Maybe. maybe not. "better than a perennial back up" would've been a good idea though.

[Buc2]

I have to disagree on three levels, not all of which you're addressing here. But I want to be clear on these points:

I don't think "Overpaid" exists in the macro sense. IE, "Athletes are overpaid while school teachers make pennies." Trying to apply normative values to market forces is Quixotic (I don't think you're making that argument.)

If you mean "Overpaid" in the sense that they take up an illogical amount of the salary cap space when weighed against their relative importance to success, that's silly (I don't think you're making that argument either.)

The argument I think you're making is that SPECIFIC quarterbacks are being overpaid relative to their SPECIFIC ability to help a team win. This is partially true. There are absolutely specific quarterbacks being paid well above "replacement level" salaries to provide replacement level or below results. Some likely candidates this year: Russell Wilson, Kirk Cousins (obviously), Sam Darnold, Kyler Murray, Brock Purdy (I don't think this is true, but some do), Justin Fields, Tua, Daniel Jones/Anthony Richardson, Trevor Lawrence, and Geno Smith.

Here's my stumbling block - this is a league where one bad season can get everyone fired. The most common way teams have a bad season? Horrible QB play. Look at Antonio Pierce with the Raiders last year. He decided to play the long game with the position, signing a high-level backup (Minshew) to compete with a young backup (O'Connell.) The result? Unemployment.

In other words, entering a season without anyone on the roster who can even theoretically elevate your success level is a great way to get fired. I bet Pierce and Tom Telesco wish they'd been a hell of a lot more aggressive in "overpaying" somebody now (yeah, they didn't have a lot of great options last year, but it doesn't change the point in any way.)

Yeah, that's pretty much it. Imo, when your QB is getting paid up to or more than 20% of your total cap, he better be able to give you something more than average play. If all they can give you is average-to-below average play, it's the height of stupidity to pay them that much. And that list you have there, those guys are all in the 'average-to-below-average' level.


The Raiders and Antonio Pierce are a special case. Mark Davis is a special kind of stupid owner. Won't get into all the history (you can basically just google it), but his decision to make Antonio Pierce the HC was just dumb, but it was a decision he forced himself into because of all the dumb decisions he made since firing Gruden. Then they hired an unproven OC, then they decided to try and make everything work with Minshew, who is at best a decent backup, but not a quality starter. That was a tire fire before they played one game, and Pierce was cooked before he was even hired.

I mean, mark Davis really looked at the AFC-W HC situation, saw Andy and Sean, two SB-winning coaches with pedigrees a mile long, and said to himself, "a rookie HC is good enough to beat those guys!" nice going, dumbass.

But yeah, he probably does regret not going after a better QB. Did he have to pay $50M/yr to keep his job? Maybe. maybe not. "better than a perennial back up" would've been a good idea though.

Mark may have inherited his father’s team, but he didn’t inherit his football acumen.

[Obsolete]

I still believe after they fired Gruden they should've went with Rich Bisaccia as HC.

[Sooner06]

I still believe after they fired Gruden they should've went with Rich Bisaccia as HC.

I mean, maybe. They should've done anything besides hiring Josh McD. Even if Davis had hired Bisaccia after the McD fiasco, i doubt he would've lasted very long. The division's HCs are now Andy Reid, Sean Payton, Jim Harbaugh, i think that's 8 SB appearances between them.

Whatever. LVR is drawing dead right now and probably will still be the least significant team in the AFC-W for years to come. But I do think Pete will be able to make them a little more competitive in 2025. Whether that actually translates into Ws in the AFC-W remains to be seen. We'll also get to see if Geno is really just a one-hit wonder or not. There's no more DK Metcalf or Tyler Lockett type receivers to throw to in his near future, so we'll get to see what he really is shortly.

[Central_Buc]

I still believe after they fired Gruden they should've went with Rich Bisaccia as HC.

I mean, maybe. They should've done anything besides hiring Josh McD. Even if Davis had hired Bisaccia after the McD fiasco, i doubt he would've lasted very long. The division's HCs are now Andy Reid, Sean Payton, Jim Harbaugh, i think that's 8 SB appearances between them.

Whatever. LVR is drawing dead right now and probably will still be the least significant team in the AFC-W for years to come. But I do think Pete will be able to make them a little more competitive in 2025. Whether that actually translates into Ws in the AFC-W remains to be seen. We'll also get to see if Geno is really just a one-hit wonder or not. There's no more DK Metcalf or Tyler Lockett type receivers to throw to in his near future, so we'll get to see what he really is shortly.

Imho not just the Raiders but I think most teams currently stuck or a mess should be looking into rookie coaches that are in tune with the current NFL or football in general, in search of the "next one"

You brought up Reid and Belichick is another example of coaches who were once rookie coaches. A Football life "Cleveland 95" was a good documentary and you get a little insight on how it was for Bill in his first job.

When Reid took over the Eagles as a rookie coach they were also a mess but like Bill, he also knew the type of players he wanted, the scheme he wanted and when he started cleaning house it didn't take them long to be competitive.

I think the traits you look for in a rookie coach are similar: those that have a plan in terms of scheme, type of players that fit their scheme and culture. Also being so obsessed with football that you know they'll put 80 plus hours in a week.

[CannonFire]

Does Sam Darnold rank higher than Mayfield on your list? Just curious because Darnold beat Mayfield out for a job at one point that got Mayfield traded when they were on the same team and just last year Darnold's season was better than Mayfield's. Or does that not count because he's not a Buc? Or, how about Tua. His 2023 season was better than Mayfield's and pretty similar to Mayfield's 2024 season. Also, prior to 2023, Tua has been better than Mayfield. Wait, I bet that doesn't count either.

LOL, "credibility".

For Darnold, no. I've watched him play, don't really care what a very bad Carolina team with a very bad coach decided to do with their QB room. But for what it's worth, Mayfield actually beat Darnold for the starting job. Darnold didn't start until week 12, Mayfield started the first five games after winning the training camp battle.

And no, he did not have a better season than Mayfield last year. Mayfield had more yards, touchdowns, better completion percentage, more rushing yards, and more rushing TDs. Mayfield also had less bad throws on more attempts with more on target throws, was sacked less and lost far less yardage per sack. Darnold wins the turnover battle by 2, so yay for him I guess..?

Tua's 23 season was not similar to Mayfield's 2024. Mayfield wins the completion percentage battle, the TD battle (44 to 29), the rushing battle, Tua had two pick 6's in '23 while Mayfield had zero in '24. Tua wins the turnover battle by 4, the sacks battle and wins the passing yard battle (having his top two receivers for 16 and 14 games vs 14 and 7 for Mayfield makes a difference there). Tua's concussion history makes it so I wouldn't have him QB a two hand touch team at this point for fear he's going to die on the field or become a vegetable after tripping over his shoe laces.

No way I'm taking either of them over Mayfield. From your list I'm not taking Lawrence, Wilson, Rodgers, Prescott, Cousins, Murray or Goff over him either. Doubt I'd go for Purdy or Stafford either. Goff I'm not sure could replicate his success on any other team but Detroit. Rodgers, Cousins, Wilson and Stafford are too close to retirement at this point in their careers, plus I think Mayfield is better than all of them with the exception of perhaps Stafford at this point in their respective careers.

So..... excuses? Got it.

[CannonFire]

If you mean "Overpaid" in the sense that they take up an illogical amount of the salary cap space when weighed against their relative importance to success, that's silly (I don't think you're making that argument either.)

I am.

New rules in the NFL has made the assimilation of new (and lesser), QBs easier and faster. Not even 20 years ago, you had a hard time naming a "Good" QB who wasn't Brady, Brees, Manning, Palmer, or McNabb (36 year old Favre?). It was immensely important to have a good QB. Today, there's like 25 and almost everyone has one. In the very not too distant future, there literally will be a surplus is QB's league-wide.

Every year or so, Pittsburgh goes out and gets a new QB and has a winning record. Denver's done it the last few. WE did it. The Vikings did it. The Browns did it (Flacco). Seattle did it.

People have watered down the definition of what a "Franchise QB" is, because they believe the con that the owners (GM's), are running. Almost every team is convinced they have a "Franchise QB". The reality is that the only teams with one are KC, Cincy, Buffalo, Baltimore, & Chargers.

Teams should stop investing a ton of money into "adequate" QB's and spend it on other players to improve the overall roster until they actually have a "Franchise QB".

[Pirate Life]

For Darnold, no. I've watched him play, don't really care what a very bad Carolina team with a very bad coach decided to do with their QB room. But for what it's worth, Mayfield actually beat Darnold for the starting job. Darnold didn't start until week 12, Mayfield started the first five games after winning the training camp battle.

And no, he did not have a better season than Mayfield last year. Mayfield had more yards, touchdowns, better completion percentage, more rushing yards, and more rushing TDs. Mayfield also had less bad throws on more attempts with more on target throws, was sacked less and lost far less yardage per sack. Darnold wins the turnover battle by 2, so yay for him I guess..?

Tua's 23 season was not similar to Mayfield's 2024. Mayfield wins the completion percentage battle, the TD battle (44 to 29), the rushing battle, Tua had two pick 6's in '23 while Mayfield had zero in '24. Tua wins the turnover battle by 4, the sacks battle and wins the passing yard battle (having his top two receivers for 16 and 14 games vs 14 and 7 for Mayfield makes a difference there). Tua's concussion history makes it so I wouldn't have him QB a two hand touch team at this point for fear he's going to die on the field or become a vegetable after tripping over his shoe laces.

No way I'm taking either of them over Mayfield. From your list I'm not taking Lawrence, Wilson, Rodgers, Prescott, Cousins, Murray or Goff over him either. Doubt I'd go for Purdy or Stafford either. Goff I'm not sure could replicate his success on any other team but Detroit. Rodgers, Cousins, Wilson and Stafford are too close to retirement at this point in their careers, plus I think Mayfield is better than all of them with the exception of perhaps Stafford at this point in their respective careers.

So..... excuses? Got it.

Nah, facts and correcting your false statements.

[mdb1958]

#10 as he was the one closest to me wanting my own stuff for my team. Don't really want any others?

[Doctor]

People have watered down the definition of what a "Franchise QB" is, because they believe the con that the owners (GM's), are running. Almost every team is convinced they have a "Franchise QB". The reality is that the only teams with one are KC, Cincy, Buffalo, Baltimore, & Chargers.

[__Chef__]

If you mean "Overpaid" in the sense that they take up an illogical amount of the salary cap space when weighed against their relative importance to success, that's silly (I don't think you're making that argument either.)

I am.

New rules in the NFL has made the assimilation of new (and lesser), QBs easier and faster. Not even 20 years ago, you had a hard time naming a "Good" QB who wasn't Brady, Brees, Manning, Palmer, or McNabb (36 year old Favre?). It was immensely important to have a good QB. Today, there's like 25 and almost everyone has one. In the very not too distant future, there literally will be a surplus is QB's league-wide.

Every year or so, Pittsburgh goes out and gets a new QB and has a winning record. Denver's done it the last few. WE did it. The Vikings did it. The Browns did it (Flacco). Seattle did it.

People have watered down the definition of what a "Franchise QB" is, because they believe the con that the owners (GM's), are running. Almost every team is convinced they have a "Franchise QB". The reality is that the only teams with one are KC, Cincy, Buffalo, Baltimore, & Chargers.

Teams should stop investing a ton of money into "adequate" QB's and spend it on other players to improve the overall roster until they actually have a "Franchise QB".

In general, I agree. For certain teams who have a successful "system" in place, it makes better sense to draft a QB every year and roll the dice than to commit such a large portion of their cap to someone like Purdy.

[Grahamburn]

People have watered down the definition of what a "Franchise QB" is, because they believe the con that the owners (GM's), are running. Almost every team is convinced they have a "Franchise QB". The reality is that the only teams with one are KC, Cincy, Buffalo, Baltimore, & Chargers.

Might as well give up.

[CannonFire]

People have watered down the definition of what a "Franchise QB" is, because they believe the con that the owners (GM's), are running. Almost every team is convinced they have a "Franchise QB". The reality is that the only teams with one are KC, Cincy, Buffalo, Baltimore, & Chargers.

Now that's funny!

[CannonFire]

So..... excuses? Got it.

Nah, facts and correcting your false statements.

Wrong.

[Pirate Life]

Nah, facts and correcting your false statements.

Wrong.

Wrong again. =) Darnold didn't beat Mayfield out for the starting QB job. Didn't have a better season last year. Tua's '23 season also not comparable to Mayfield's '24 season. So yes, facts and correcting false statements.

[Grahamburn]

He thought he was right in 2023 and now he’s just leaning into the schtick.

[Central_Buc]

Cannon Fire has the most Baker memorabilia and he kisses it all before bed.

[Obsolete]

Cannon Fire has the most Baker memorabilia and he kisses it all before bed.

Hes got a Baker Mayfield body pillow that he cuddles with at night.

[Central_Buc]

Cannon Fire has the most Baker memorabilia and he kisses it all before bed.

Hes got a Baker Mayfield body pillow that he cuddles with at night.

The biggest one too.

[CannonFire]

Wrong.

Wrong again. =) Darnold didn't beat Mayfield out for the starting QB job. Didn't have a better season last year. Tua's '23 season also not comparable to Mayfield's '24 season. So yes, facts and correcting false statements.

Here's the disconnect you're having. Graham posted "justification" on why Baker is a top 10 quarterback.

If you compare Tua's 2023 season and Darnold's 2024 season, you'll find that both were in the top 10 of everyone of those categories as well (Darnold missed one). So, either they're top 10 QB's like Mayfield OR none of them are. What you'll find is, only Bucs fans will have Mayfield in the top 10... you'll notice in my list, all 3 are in the bottom 6 or 7 of my top 20. The only one being consistent on evaluation here, is me.

Tua 2023:
5th in Pass TDs
1st in yards
4th in completions
7th in TD%
5th in passer rating
5th in completion %
2nd in yards per attempt

Darnold 2024:
5th in Pass TDs
5th in yards
9th in completions
5th in TD%
6th in passer rating
16th in completion %
6th in yards per attempt

Oh, you're right, he didn't beat out Mayfield... Mayfield was given the job because Darnold was hurt. Mayfield got benched and Darnold outperformed him on the same team.

[Grahamburn]

I'm only evaluating Baker on what he has done as a Buc. Why is anything prior relevant to the discussion? Legitimately asking.

There's some serious mental weighted average adjustment gymnastics going on when your justification for Baker being 20th is how Darnold did or didn't beat out Mayfield on an awful Carolina team 3 years ago. Like, what?

[Central_Buc]

Wrong again. =) Darnold didn't beat Mayfield out for the starting QB job. Didn't have a better season last year. Tua's '23 season also not comparable to Mayfield's '24 season. So yes, facts and correcting false statements.

Here's the disconnect you're having. Graham posted "justification" on why Baker is a top 10 quarterback.

If you compare Tua's 2023 season and Darnold's 2024 season, you'll find that both were in the top 10 of everyone of those categories as well (Darnold missed one). So, either they're top 10 QB's like Mayfield OR none of them are. What you'll find is, only Bucs fans will have Mayfield in the top 10... you'll notice in my list, all 3 are in the bottom 6 or 7 of my top 20. The only one being consistent on evaluation here, is me.

Tua 2023:
5th in Pass TDs
1st in yards
4th in completions
7th in TD%
5th in passer rating
5th in completion %
2nd in yards per attempt

Darnold 2024:
5th in Pass TDs
5th in yards
9th in completions
5th in TD%
6th in passer rating
16th in completion %
6th in yards per attempt

Oh, you're right, he didn't beat out Mayfield... Mayfield was given the job because Darnold was hurt. Mayfield got benched and Darnold outperformed him on the same team.

How long have you been a Buc fan? Because I'm not sure you understand how unlucky we've been at the QB position. You can't say Baker isn't going to finish #1 in franchise history giving him a few more years.

No one is saying he's perfect but he's the best mid to long term guy we've had. For once we have someone who can take the reigns for more than 4 years and on his worst day be competent.

[Buc2]

Here's the disconnect you're having. Graham posted "justification" on why Baker is a top 10 quarterback.

If you compare Tua's 2023 season and Darnold's 2024 season, you'll find that both were in the top 10 of everyone of those categories as well (Darnold missed one). So, either they're top 10 QB's like Mayfield OR none of them are. What you'll find is, only Bucs fans will have Mayfield in the top 10... you'll notice in my list, all 3 are in the bottom 6 or 7 of my top 20. The only one being consistent on evaluation here, is me.

Tua 2023:
5th in Pass TDs
1st in yards
4th in completions
7th in TD%
5th in passer rating
5th in completion %
2nd in yards per attempt

Darnold 2024:
5th in Pass TDs
5th in yards
9th in completions
5th in TD%
6th in passer rating
16th in completion %
6th in yards per attempt

Oh, you're right, he didn't beat out Mayfield... Mayfield was given the job because Darnold was hurt. Mayfield got benched and Darnold outperformed him on the same team.

How long have you been a Buc fan? Because I'm not sure you understand how unlucky we've been at the QB position. You can't say Baker isn't going to finish #1 in franchise history giving him a few more years.

No one is saying he's perfect but he's the best mid to long term guy we've had. For once we have someone who can take the reigns for more than 4 years and on his worst day be competent.

And there it is in a nutshell. Can't argue with that. Baker is our QB. Top 10 or not is purely subjective. Plenty of NFL people say he is. I'll leave it at that.

[Central_Buc]

How long have you been a Buc fan? Because I'm not sure you understand how unlucky we've been at the QB position. You can't say Baker isn't going to finish #1 in franchise history giving him a few more years.

No one is saying he's perfect but he's the best mid to long term guy we've had. For once we have someone who can take the reigns for more than 4 years and on his worst day be competent.

And there it is in a nutshell. Can't argue with that. Baker is our QB. Top 10 or not is purely subjective. Plenty of NFL people say he is. I'll leave it at that.

I was just listening to the Sims and Florio podcast and the were talking about Coen and Lawrence and the uncertainty there in Jag land.

Florio goes on to say maybe Coen wants to go after Baker because Lawrence still isn't it. As if we're not going to resign Baker in 2 years.

I doubt Licht is going to let that happen but still, careful what you wish for.

[Doctor]

Baker is everything we would have wanted any #1 pick to be for us at this point. We'd be over the moon if he was our own home grown princess.

[Pirate Life]

Here's the disconnect you're having. Graham posted "justification" on why Baker is a top 10 quarterback.

If you compare Tua's 2023 season and Darnold's 2024 season, you'll find that both were in the top 10 of everyone of those categories as well (Darnold missed one). So, either they're top 10 QB's like Mayfield OR none of them are. What you'll find is, only Bucs fans will have Mayfield in the top 10... you'll notice in my list, all 3 are in the bottom 6 or 7 of my top 20. The only one being consistent on evaluation here, is me.

Tua 2023:
5th in Pass TDs
1st in yards
4th in completions
7th in TD%
5th in passer rating
5th in completion %
2nd in yards per attempt

Darnold 2024:
5th in Pass TDs
5th in yards
9th in completions
5th in TD%
6th in passer rating
16th in completion %
6th in yards per attempt

Oh, you're right, he didn't beat out Mayfield... Mayfield was given the job because Darnold was hurt. Mayfield got benched and Darnold outperformed him on the same team.

No disconnect, just correcting false statements you keep making. Darnold lost the job to Mayfield before he was injured in the last preseason game FYI. Mayfield was named the starter August 22nd, Darnold injured on August 26th late in the 3rd quarter after Mayfield finished playing with the starters. From the Panthers site: https://www.panthers.com/news/baker-may ... uarterback

And no, you aren't consistent in your ratings. You ding Mayfield for things you don't ding other QBs for. You have Cousins ranked higher when you bring up Mayfield's interceptions/turnovers, Cousins tied Mayfield for turnovers (both the same amount of lost fumbles and INTs) and played 3 less games, far worse stats across the board as well.

For Darnold, you claimed he had a better season last year (not that he was a top 10 QB) and I guess the list I gave didn't sink in so we'll do it your way:

Mayfield 2024
2nd in TDs
3rd in yards
2nd in completions
2nd in TD%
4th in passer rating
3rd in completion %
6th in yards per attempt (Does a tie in one stat count as a better season when you lose every other category?)

For Tua, you claimed his 23 season was comparable to Mayfield's 24 season. Straight up comparison with the data above shows that's incorrect, but for funsies I decided to put Mayfield's 24 stats into the 23 rankings to see how he comes out vs Tua and did the same for Tua's 23 into 24.

Mayfield's 24 folded into 23 rankings first:

1st in TDs
4th in yards
2nd in completions
1st in TD%
2nd in passer rating
1st in completion %
6th in yards per attempt

Pretty sure that's a win for Mayfield. Top 5 in everything but yards per attempt, Tua was barely top 5 (three 5ths and a 4th) in all but TD%. Mayfield averaged 2nd, Tua averaged 4th with Mayfield finishing higher than Tua in 5 of 7 of your categories. So no, not really comparable.

Now for Tua's 23 stats folded into the 24 rankings:

6th in TDs
2nd in yards
6th in completions
9th in TD%
10th in passer rating
6th in completion %
4th in yards per attempt

Again, win for Mayfield. I think even you can see Tua's 23 season doesn't compare to Mayfield's 24 yet you keep insisting that it does.

Your serve I guess.

[Bootz]

I'm not getting to involved in this discussion, but I'm calling bullshit on the numbers unless someone can explain this one: Completion%.

Tua in 2023 had a completion% of 69.3.
Tua in 2024 had a completion % of 72.3(#1)

Baker in 2023 had a completion % of 64.3
Baker in 2024 had a completion% of 71.4.


In what universe do those 2 years combine for Baker to be #1 in completion% and Tua all the way down to #6?

That only stuck out to me because if you look up completion% all time, Tua is #2 and he just finished 1st in 2024. I'd say you guys need to recheck your sources.

[Pirate Life]

I'm not getting to involved in this discussion, but I'm calling bullshit on the numbers unless someone can explain this one: Completion%.

Tua in 2023 had a completion% of 69.3.
Tua in 2024 had a completion % of 72.3(#1)

Baker in 2023 had a completion % of 64.3
Baker in 2024 had a completion% of 71.4.


In what universe do those 2 years combine for Baker to be #1 in completion% and Tua all the way down to #6?

That only stuck out to me because if you look up completion% all time, Tua is #2 and he just finished 1st in 2024. I'd say you guys need to recheck your sources.

They aren't combined. CF has stated that Tua's 23 season was comparable/better than Mayfield's 24 season. I popped Mayfield's 24 numbers into the 23 rankings as a season (not adding them together) and did the same with Tua's 23 into the 24 season to see where they would rank compared to the league and where each would land. It's nonense, kinda like CF's continual attempts to contort his argument rather than admit Mayfield is a better QB than he thought.

[Bootz]

I'm not getting to involved in this discussion, but I'm calling bullshit on the numbers unless someone can explain this one: Completion%.

Tua in 2023 had a completion% of 69.3.
Tua in 2024 had a completion % of 72.3(#1)

Baker in 2023 had a completion % of 64.3
Baker in 2024 had a completion% of 71.4.


In what universe do those 2 years combine for Baker to be #1 in completion% and Tua all the way down to #6?

That only stuck out to me because if you look up completion% all time, Tua is #2 and he just finished 1st in 2024. I'd say you guys need to recheck your sources.

They aren't combined. CF has stated that Tua's 23 season was comparable/better than Mayfield's 24 season. I popped Mayfield's 24 numbers into the 23 rankings as a season (not adding them together) and did the same with Tua's 23 into the 24 season to see where they would rank compared to the league and where each would land. It's nonense, kinda like CF's continual attempts to contort his argument rather than admit Mayfield is a better QB than he thought.

Ah! Okay. I understand now. I assumed folded meant combined. Gotcha.

Carry on.

[CannonFire]

Here's the disconnect you're having. Graham posted "justification" on why Baker is a top 10 quarterback.

If you compare Tua's 2023 season and Darnold's 2024 season, you'll find that both were in the top 10 of everyone of those categories as well (Darnold missed one). So, either they're top 10 QB's like Mayfield OR none of them are. What you'll find is, only Bucs fans will have Mayfield in the top 10... you'll notice in my list, all 3 are in the bottom 6 or 7 of my top 20. The only one being consistent on evaluation here, is me.

Tua 2023:
5th in Pass TDs
1st in yards
4th in completions
7th in TD%
5th in passer rating
5th in completion %
2nd in yards per attempt

Darnold 2024:
5th in Pass TDs
5th in yards
9th in completions
5th in TD%
6th in passer rating
16th in completion %
6th in yards per attempt

Oh, you're right, he didn't beat out Mayfield... Mayfield was given the job because Darnold was hurt. Mayfield got benched and Darnold outperformed him on the same team.

How long have you been a Buc fan? Because I'm not sure you understand how unlucky we've been at the QB position. You can't say Baker isn't going to finish #1 in franchise history giving him a few more years.

No one is saying he's perfect but he's the best mid to long term guy we've had. For once we have someone who can take the reigns for more than 4 years and on his worst day be competent.

I've been a Bucs fan to know that you should never use our history to justify "rationale" in today's game. Reason being, the bar is so low that any QB that doesn't suck, will be a top 3 QB in our teams history. Jameis Winston is the #1 QB in our teams history in terms of yards, yds/att, & TD's and that dude focking sucks. On ANY other team other than the Bucs, post 2017, he's a backup... yet, he was our starter for 2 more years. I said this in another post... if Mayfield can't play for any reason the next 2 years, with the talent we have locked up through the end of the 2026 season, if he doesn't suck, Kyle Trask will no doubt, be in our top 5. It took Mayfield 2 seasons to be in the discussion... and one of them (2023), by virtually every metric, he was "league" average. People are literally calling what to this point is a "career year", be the sole argument to saying Mayfield is either a franchise QB, top 5 or top 10. It's something that NONE them do with other QB's.

I never said anyone is claiming he's perfect. Pat Mahomes isn't perfect. My whole stance was that Mayfield is no better than 25 (give or take), other guys. Let's not make him out to be a stud. He's a JAG and there are well over 20 other JAGS that can come in here and do the same thing... another 5 who WILL do better (that number may be higher after we see another year from a couple of guys). To say he's "Top 10", is a homer stance. You want to call him "Top 10", honestly, go ahead... but don't sit there and say I "hate" the guy or think "we stink", because I don't think he's a top 10 guy. He's around league average. Virtually his entire career says he's "average". The ONLY data point that says he isn't, was last year. I gave people here on this board 2 other players whom in the last 2 years, had similar years to Mayfield - recently, and NO ONE thinks they're top 10. It's bias. Like I said, be bias, but just shut up if I (or others), don't agree with your bias.

I've said multiple times, I'd rather Licht sign him to a 5+ year extension than do these stupid restructures forcing problematic salary cap issues. Next year he's a $50M cap hit. Why? Wtf is that? He's now a $20M+ dead cap him the following year because of avoidable years. Again... why? If Licht (and Bowles), agree with the bias attitude on this board that Mayfield is a top 5 (as some proclaim), how come they didn't give him a 5-year extension (7 overall), eating up the voidable years and spread the money out further? There are only 3 reasons why that didn't happen.

1) Licht and Co didn't believe in Mayfield after 2023 (or 2024), to make that commitment (despite many here thinking they should... apparently).
2) Mayfield thinks he's worth more than the Bucs FO and the FO took the short term route to make things work now.
3) Licht and Co are too scared to make a decision so they're going to wait as long as possible and either be forced to pay Mayfield a huge payday to make the squeaky wheels happy (while hurting the team - see Baltimore Ravens & Joe Flacco new contract), or let him walk and piss off the squeaky wheels.

(Do you have another reason why all we did was fock ourselves with Mayfield's contract next year?)

So, it seems to me that either a lot of people are going to be ticked off when Mayfield walks after 2026 because the FO agrees with me or we're going to be in a continual state of fudging with the cap to keep him around, just enough so that we can bring back a player or two or bring in a mid-level FA in, to fill a hole... that doesn't really improve our team, it just prevents us from getting worse. The word that describes that is: "Pretender". We literally have an elite offense surrounding Mayfield. Teams don't do that very long. Hell, KC only had it for 3 years for Mahomes.

People here are already blaming Todd Bowles. I find it funny how when I say we shouldn't pay Mayfield a lot of money, that the response I get is "Who else are you going to get"... yet, they never have a good response to firing Bowles. If there's another candidate out there better than Bowles, the questions are... how do you know he'll be better... if he will be better, why isn't he one now... if he is better now, how come he'll be available next year.

Fans on this board, and I believe the Glazers and Licht, fall into the Voltaire line of thinking. "Don't let perfect be the enemy of good." In the NFL world, that translates to "Why be a contender when the fanbase will accept a pretender". Another way of saying that is, "Let's just be good enough to stay competitive and hope that one day we'll get lucky and win a championship." Well, that's not me. I'm of the mindset that says "Keep trying until you find Tom Brady (Pat Mahomes)". In other words, Jim Collins. "Good is the enemy of Great".

So, if some people want to act like douchebags because I don't think Mayfield is all that special, then I'll give it back in kind.

[Backside]

I’m very behind on the discussions


But Cousins and Russ

[CannonFire]

I'm not getting to involved in this discussion, but I'm calling bullshit on the numbers unless someone can explain this one: Completion%.

Tua in 2023 had a completion% of 69.3.
Tua in 2024 had a completion % of 72.3(#1)

Baker in 2023 had a completion % of 64.3
Baker in 2024 had a completion% of 71.4.


In what universe do those 2 years combine for Baker to be #1 in completion% and Tua all the way down to #6?

That only stuck out to me because if you look up completion% all time, Tua is #2 and he just finished 1st in 2024. I'd say you guys need to recheck your sources.

Graham made a comment a couple pages ago that Mayfield finishing in the top 10 in like 7 categories in 2024 made him a top 10 NFL quarterback. YET, Tua's numbers in 2023 and Darnold's in 2024 pretty much fit that same bill and people on here like @Pirate Life want to pretend that this didn't happen and wants come up with excuses why "it's different".

Even though Tua played less games than Mayfield, Tua still has a better comp%, ypg, ypa, passer rating, and QBR over the last two combined years... yet, he's apparently not that good and Mayfield is great.

[Bootz]

I'm not getting to involved in this discussion, but I'm calling bullshit on the numbers unless someone can explain this one: Completion%.

Tua in 2023 had a completion% of 69.3.
Tua in 2024 had a completion % of 72.3(#1)

Baker in 2023 had a completion % of 64.3
Baker in 2024 had a completion% of 71.4.


In what universe do those 2 years combine for Baker to be #1 in completion% and Tua all the way down to #6?

That only stuck out to me because if you look up completion% all time, Tua is #2 and he just finished 1st in 2024. I'd say you guys need to recheck your sources.

Graham made a comment a couple pages ago that Mayfield finishing in the top 10 in like 7 categories in 2024 made him a top 10 NFL quarterback. YET, Tua's numbers in 2023 and Darnold's in 2024 pretty much fit that same bill and people on here like @Pirate Life want to pretend that this didn't happen and wants come up with excuses why "it's different".

Even though Tua played less games than Mayfield, Tua still has a better comp%, ypg, ypa, passer rating, and QBR over the last two combined years... yet, he's apparently not that good and Mayfield is great.

I said carry on. I'm not getting involved in a QB ranking discussion based on stats.

[CannonFire]

I’m very behind on the discussions


But Cousins and Russ

This organization has built an offense for a prototypical pocket passer. Excellent pass blocking OLine, excellent pass catching RB's. Quality short, intermediate, and deep route receiving option. Excellent quick decision maker's wet dream. Cousins has always been that. Wilson is that now. Mayfield isn't. He's slow at processing and/or holds the ball too long. Those two would be better fit for our offense than Mayfield.