Baker Mayfield: PAID

[Bootz]

A down year for Mahomes since he became starter is he loses in the AFC Championship game. 3-2 Superbowls record. He has more Super Bowl wins than Baker does playoff wins. What are we talking about indeed?

[Doctor]

And we saw what he did in our SB, it was like containing freaking Superman out there.

Makes the win just that much more incredible.

[Obsolete]

I find it curious how Andy Reid is known for his offense but the Chiefs strongest unit is their defense and Todd Bowles is known for defense and yet the Bucs strongest unit is their offense.

Just find it interesting.

[__Chef__]

I find it curious how Andy Reid is know for his offense but the Chiefs strongest unit is their defense and Todd Bowles is known for defense and yet the Bucs strongest unit is their offense.

Just find it interesting.

Credit to Bowles and other great coaches before him ... they know and recognize where their coaching staffs have strengths and weaknesses. Bowles has seen his offensive coaches consistently turn draft picks into stars ... He's also seen JTS and Hall ... He picked Egbuka first round.

Hat tip.

[Pirate Life]

Mahomes last few seasons show why Brady will still be the GOAT. Mahomes can’t elevate those around him like Brady could. Crazy to think of some of the guys Brady made look serviceable. Mahomes falls off a good bit when he has subpar talent to throw to or protect him.

Mahomes just led a sorry KC squad to a SB again, what are we talking about?

That ‘very sorry squad’ had more first team all pros than Brady’s first three SB squads combined. And reading comprehension helps. I’m talking about the performance on the field, ie stats relative to their own stats. Brady’s don’t drop off much compared to Mahomes when he’s got journeymen level players around him.

[Bootz]

Mahomes just led a sorry KC squad to a SB again, what are we talking about?

That ‘very sorry squad’ had more first team all pros than Brady’s first three SB squads combined. And reading comprehension helps. I’m talking about the performance on the field, ie stats relative to their own stats. Brady’s don’t drop off much compared to Mahomes when he’s got journeymen level players around him.

100% Wrong.

The 2024 Chiefs had 3 1st team All-Pros: Joe Thuney, Creed Humphrey and Chris Jones.

The 2001 New England Patriots had 0 1st team All-Pros.

The 2003 New England Patriots had 3 1st team All-Pros: Ty Law, Richard Seymour and Rodney Harrison.

The 2004 New England Patriots had 2 1st team All-Pros: Adam Vinitari and Richard Seymour.

And again, this goes back to whether you're being objective or not. Are you comparing Mahomes 1st 8 to Brady's 1st 8 or Mahomes 1st 8 to Brady's entire 21? That context does matter.

[Buc2]

And again, this goes back to whether you're being objective or not. Are you comparing Mahomes 1st 8 to Brady's 1st 8 or Mahomes 1st 8 to Brady's entire 21? That context does matter.

Yep. It absolutely matters. Like I said, the time to compare these 2 great QB's is after Mahomes career is finished. Trying to do it now is nothing but conjecture.

[Sooner06]

There’s more evidence that he’s better than Mahomes in the past two years.

End of discussion period


@Chef @Central_Buc

On a head to head comp, it's tough to say ... On one hand, Mahomes has been really clutch in getting to the SB. On the other hand, in our SB and the last one, Mahomes folded. One needs to also factor in the coaching staffs and talent surrounding them.

If we had Mahomes last year, we probably win against the Commanders.
If they had Baker last year, they probably don't make it to the Superbowl.

They are a lot more comparable now after Mahomes' two clunkers, but Baker still hasn't reached the SB to see if he can win one, or fold like Mahomes did last year.

Mahomes > Baker ... for now.

Mahomes didn't 'fold' in the 2020 SB, his receivers did. He literally ran for nearly 400 yds trying to evade the TB rush all game, and still managed to hit 4 Chiefs dead nuts perfect for TDs. His receivers just dropped every one of those passes.


Now, in last year's SB, he actually wasn't good. Across the board he was below average and that was probably the worst game of his career. And blaming the left side of the OL was only a part of the problem. Fact is, Mahomes created/was responsible for a lot of KC's issues in that SB. Add in the odd playcalling, the flawed play designs and several route running errors by a couple of his receivers, well, the score sums it up fairly well. And even the score is a little off, because KC got beat worse than it indicates.

[Sooner06]

I do agree landing spot is just so huge for these guys.

Does Mahomes become Mahomes if he goes to Cleveland? Man. Think about it.

Also, Baker was || this close to flaming out of the league prior to coming here. Now, after a couple good years with a stable organization, fresh off Brady showing our team what it takes to build a championship, he's put up top 5 numbers and some pundits are even saying he's underrated.

How would Baker have turned out if Andy Reid drafted him to the Chiefs? Who knows, as it sounded like he had some growing up to do in his early years.

Mahomes to Cleveland wouldn't have led to multiple Super bowls, that much is certain.

Exactly.


If Andy drafted Baker, Mayfield would've been that much further ahead of the curve. No wasted years with Hue/Todd Haley/Freddie kitchens. No erratic mishandling by the owner. A menagerie of some of the best offensive weapons in the game at the time.

One system, instead of having to learn a new system every single season, being mentored by maybe the greatest offensive mind of the century, with a solid-to-great defense (and DC) and a top-ten STs/STs coach.

Would Baker have led KC to five SB appearances? probably not. But he could've led them to at least two. thinking about the 2020 and 2021 seasons specifically. He might've even outplayed Pat's performance in the AFCCG '21 vs. CIN. Pat's performance in the 2nd half of that game was . . . uncharacteristically tentative in situations where Baker almost certainly would've pulled the trigger on in-breakers in the EZ (one to Travis/one to DRob, iirc), either of which would've given KC the lead in that game. And those were the exact types of throws you'd expect Pat to dart.


Anyway, yeah, as I've said a million times, great coaching and solid team stability are often bigger factors than a QB's individual talents. Baker had neither. Imo, it says something about Baker's abilities that he was able to lead CLE to the playoffs at all, given just how bad CLE as an organization has been when it comes to developing/nurturing QBs, oh for the last third of a century or so.

Hell, look at SF; the team and Shannahan took that organization to two SBs in the last 5 years, not their QBs. Jimmy was below average as a passer, and Purdy is the definition of average. But both of those teams had top-5 defenses (littered with All-Pros and future HoFers) and a bucket full of the best offensive players in the league: Trent Williams, G. Kittle, B. Aiyuk, Deebo, CMC, etc. and so on.

[Bootz]

Main reason people speak so much in hypotheticals is because they know they can never ever be proven or disproven. It just makes them feel smarter.

Shoulda coulda wouldas warm the soul.

Bump……

[__Chef__]

Main reason people speak so much in hypotheticals is because they know they can never ever be proven or disproven. It just makes them feel smarter.

Shoulda coulda wouldas warm the soul.

Bump……

It's the offseason, and it's an interesting thought exercise.
How many "great" QBs turned around losing franchises?

The QB is obviously the most important player on a team. And losing franchises end up at the top of the draft to take their pick of the litter. Stands to reason, "franchise" QBs should be taken at the top of the draft frequently to these losing franchises.

How many have landed, and turned the losers into winners?

I'm not saying this from a researched position to create a trap, I honestly can't think of many/any ... Typically whoever the chosen QB is, ends up stinking it up and they toss him aside as a "bust" ... are they really all busts, or were they just stuck on a trash team?

I suppose one could say Baker is in the convo as he did take the Browns to the playoffs ... not a Browns fan, but they haven't exactly been known as "winners" over the years.

Can you name any?

[Doctor]

You made the most like 3 days ago, what are you bumping?

Also, the main reason we have hypotheticals is to message on a message board. Wild.

[Grahamburn]

And we saw what he did in our SB, it was like containing freaking Superman out there.

Makes the win just that much more incredible.

Everything went our way in that game. Their tackles being out. Calls. That early drop from Kelce.

[Bootz]

And we saw what he did in our SB, it was like containing freaking Superman out there.

Makes the win just that much more incredible.

Everything went our way in that game. Their tackles being out. Calls. That early drop from Kelce.

Wasn't Mahomes playing on 2 bad ankles as well?

[Grahamburn]

Everything went our way in that game. Their tackles being out. Calls. That early drop from Kelce.

Wasn't Mahomes playing on 2 bad ankles as well?

Probably. Seems like he has foot/ankle issues every year.

[Bootz]

Wasn't Mahomes playing on 2 bad ankles as well?

Probably. Seems like he has foot/ankle issues every year.

That is true.

It was our year and our game and we capitalized. Doesn't diminish our performance or victory at all in my eyes. We handled our the circumstances better than they did.

[Grahamburn]

Probably. Seems like he has foot/ankle issues every year.

That is true.

It was our year and our game and we capitalized. Doesn't diminish our performance or victory at all in my eyes. We handled our the circumstances better than they did.

No asterisks from me. Just pointing it out. We kicked their ass.

Honestly thought their gameplan was crazy considering their tackles being situation.

[Bootz]

That is true.

It was our year and our game and we capitalized. Doesn't diminish our performance or victory at all in my eyes. We handled our the circumstances better than they did.

No asterisks from me. Just pointing it out. We kicked their ass.

Honestly thought their gameplan was crazy considering their tackles being situation.

Yea we did. It was so enjoyable to get revenge.

As far as game plan, they tried to replicate what they did in the regular season game. We had zero answer for Tyreek Hill. Literally zero. 13 catches, 269 yards and 3 TDs. If he had numbers like that over 3 games, that would be seen as great.

[Grahamburn]

No asterisks from me. Just pointing it out. We kicked their ass.

Honestly thought their gameplan was crazy considering their tackles being situation.

Yea we did. It was so enjoyable to get revenge.

As far as game plan, they tried to replicate what they did in the regular season game. We had zero answer for Tyreek Hill. Literally zero. 13 catches, 269 yards and 3 TDs. If he had numbers like that over 3 games, that would be seen as great.

Arrogant of them to think they could do that again without their tackles. No way their protection was going to hold up long enough for him to get loose deep again.

Bowles’ game plan was perfect.

[__Chef__]

Yea we did. It was so enjoyable to get revenge.

As far as game plan, they tried to replicate what they did in the regular season game. We had zero answer for Tyreek Hill. Literally zero. 13 catches, 269 yards and 3 TDs. If he had numbers like that over 3 games, that would be seen as great.

Arrogant of them to think they could do that again without their tackles. No way their protection was going to hold up long enough for him to get loose deep again.

Bowles’ game plan was perfect.

Gameplan, ability of our line to get pressure, and White performing like the player we all hoped he would turn into ...

[__Chef__]

Bump……

It's the offseason, and it's an interesting thought exercise.
How many "great" QBs turned around losing franchises?

The QB is obviously the most important player on a team. And losing franchises end up at the top of the draft to take their pick of the litter. Stands to reason, "franchise" QBs should be taken at the top of the draft frequently to these losing franchises.

How many have landed, and turned the losers into winners?

I'm not saying this from a researched position to create a trap, I honestly can't think of many/any ... Typically whoever the chosen QB is, ends up stinking it up and they toss him aside as a "bust" ... are they really all busts, or were they just stuck on a trash team?

I suppose one could say Baker is in the convo as he did take the Browns to the playoffs ... not a Browns fan, but they haven't exactly been known as "winners" over the years.

Can you name any?

@Bootz have you thought of any examples?

[Grahamburn]

Arrogant of them to think they could do that again without their tackles. No way their protection was going to hold up long enough for him to get loose deep again.

Bowles’ game plan was perfect.

Gameplan, ability of our line to get pressure, and White performing like the player we all hoped he would turn into ...

His entire playoff run was Fire. We don’t get that championship without him.

[Bootz]

Yea we did. It was so enjoyable to get revenge.

As far as game plan, they tried to replicate what they did in the regular season game. We had zero answer for Tyreek Hill. Literally zero. 13 catches, 269 yards and 3 TDs. If he had numbers like that over 3 games, that would be seen as great.

Arrogant of them to think they could do that again without their tackles. No way their protection was going to hold up long enough for him to get loose deep again.

Bowles’ game plan was perfect.

Not only that, did they not expect that we'd make adjustments? I think with the tackles being out, Bowles didn't blitz as much as we kept our safeties over the top, which shrank the windows for Hill. Kelce did work over the middle, but they had to fight for every yard.

[Sooner06]

Yea we did. It was so enjoyable to get revenge.

As far as game plan, they tried to replicate what they did in the regular season game. We had zero answer for Tyreek Hill. Literally zero. 13 catches, 269 yards and 3 TDs. If he had numbers like that over 3 games, that would be seen as great.

Arrogant of them to think they could do that again without their tackles. No way their protection was going to hold up long enough for him to get loose deep again.

Bowles’ game plan was perfect.

Wasn't just the chiefs OTs that were out of that game. The only starting OL to play in that SB was Reiter, the C. Everyone else on that line was a backup.

[BucsNBills]

Gameplan, ability of our line to get pressure, and White performing like the player we all hoped he would turn into ...

His entire playoff run was Fire. We don’t get that championship without him.

Yeah, regardless of what ended up happening with White, he earned his selection with his 2020 playoff performance.

Sucks that he probably let that run go to his head and never bothered trying to improve. What could've been....

[Buc2]

Arrogant of them to think they could do that again without their tackles. No way their protection was going to hold up long enough for him to get loose deep again.

Bowles’ game plan was perfect.

Wasn't just the chiefs OTs that were out of that game. The only starting OL to play in that SB was Reiter, the C. Everyone else on that line was a backup.

Wah. Fuck the Chiefs.

[__Chef__]

Wasn't just the chiefs OTs that were out of that game. The only starting OL to play in that SB was Reiter, the C. Everyone else on that line was a backup.

Wah. Fuck the Chiefs.

Twice.

[Doctor]

I think White only ever saw this as a 9-to-5 job to get a check and support his family/horses. Which is fine, he earned tf out of that rookie contract. Hope he was smart with it and can retire comfortably when time. Horses are expensive.

[Grahamburn]

I think White only ever saw this as a 9-to-5 job to get a check and support his family/horses. Which is fine, he earned tf out of that rookie contract. Hope he was smart with it and can retire comfortably when time. Horses are expensive.

Just over $44M. Unfortunately he stopped playing like an a man possessed and started worrying about getting hurt.

[__Chef__]

I think White only ever saw this as a 9-to-5 job to get a check and support his family/horses. Which is fine, he earned tf out of that rookie contract. Hope he was smart with it and can retire comfortably when time. Horses are expensive.

I'm not sure I buy that. His growth and trajectory up to the SB were incredible. Then after he won the ring it seemed he mailed it in. Constantly out of position. Obviously not listening to coaches trying to get him to play disciplined football and knowing his role on the field at any given time. As far as the 9-5 aspect, I think he assumed he put enough splash plays out there to cash a retirement check on a team foolish enough to give him a long-term deal he had no intention of living up to.

Sad, as when he came into the league, his stated goal was to be the best LB in the game. For a moment, it looked like he'd get there.

[Sooner06]

Wasn't just the chiefs OTs that were out of that game. The only starting OL to play in that SB was Reiter, the C. Everyone else on that line was a backup.

Wah. Fuck the Chiefs.

Meh. Not complaining. i knew what the probable outcome would be as soon as Fisher popped his ACL or Achilles or whatever, weeks before the SB. Everyone pretty much did. Not winning too many NFL games without an OL.

[Doctor]

I think White only ever saw this as a 9-to-5 job to get a check and support his family/horses. Which is fine, he earned tf out of that rookie contract. Hope he was smart with it and can retire comfortably when time. Horses are expensive.

I'm not sure I buy that. His growth and trajectory up to the SB were incredible. Then after he won the ring it seemed he mailed it in. Constantly out of position. Obviously not listening to coaches trying to get him to play disciplined football and knowing his role on the field at any given time. As far as the 9-5 aspect, I think he assumed he put enough splash plays out there to cash a retirement check on a team foolish enough to give him a long-term deal he had no intention of living up to.

Sad, as when he came into the league, his stated goal was to be the best LB in the game. For a moment, it looked like he'd get there.

If anything I think your points actually back the narrative. And IIRC his stated goal was not to be the best but the highest paid.

Bring a team a SB, cash out, cruise control, ride horses.

He was well on his way then the Shaq injury scared the crap out of him. Saw how his almost in hand bag could vanish in an instant, not to mention physical quality of life. Went to cruise control early. Cock blocked himself.

[Doctor]

I think White only ever saw this as a 9-to-5 job to get a check and support his family/horses. Which is fine, he earned tf out of that rookie contract. Hope he was smart with it and can retire comfortably when time. Horses are expensive.

Just over $44M. Unfortunately he stopped playing like an a man possessed and started worrying about getting hurt.

Yup. He also made the (mistake?) of thinking splash plays were what got you paid so when he saw it slipping he leaned more into trying to make a big play every time he was on the field than actually being in the right position and executing the right assignment for the defense as a whole.

Awful finish, but boy were those first few laps great.

[__Chef__]

...And IIRC his stated goal was not to be the best but the highest paid...

This isn't the exact one I had in mind where he was quoted as saying it, but you can get a glimpse of what he was trying to sell here.

Essentially: "Came here, set the goal of xyz, did it, now I'm going to go to a team and bring them to a SB."

[Bootz]

Devin White didn't become the cornerstone we hoped he was. But at his worst he's still better than whatever lie people told themselves about KJ Britt.