Rapid response- Bucs win on the road over Seattle!

[Buc2]

I want to chime in here. Because I can see that the "any QB can do it" phrase has been falsely applied to @CannonFire when I was the one who said it. Furthermore, this was a very specific discussion last season I had with @Grahamburn and what he's done is made a false equivalency of what I said and is applying it to any and e everything Baker does. He knows this and is yet still pushing forward with this lie.

The conversation last year pertained to the fact that Baker at the time was hovering around .500 aa starting QB here and had been throwing an insane amount of INTs. He ended up leading the league. But basically statement was directed at that. It really isnt hard to find a QB that can go .500 and lead the league in turnovers.

So that's just my 2 cents clearing up some misinformation.

You may have said it first, but CF ran with it and made it his.

[CannonFire]

I want to chime in here. Because I can see that the "any QB can do it" phrase has been falsely applied to @CannonFire when I was the one who said it. Furthermore, this was a very specific discussion last season I had with @Grahamburn and what he's done is made a false equivalency of what I said and is applying it to any and e everything Baker does. He knows this and is yet still pushing forward with this lie.

The conversation last year pertained to the fact that Baker at the time was hovering around .500 aa starting QB here and had been throwing an insane amount of INTs. He ended up leading the league. But basically statement was directed at that. It really isnt hard to find a QB that can go .500 and lead the league in turnovers.

So that's just my 2 cents clearing up some misinformation.

You may have said it first, but CF ran with it and made it his.

Yeah, that's not true either. Saying 20+ guys could do it, isn't saying "anyone". We're still talking about 20+ starting NFL QB's.

[CannonFire]

I want to chime in here. Because I can see that the "any QB can do it" phrase has been falsely applied to @CannonFire when I was the one who said it. Furthermore, this was a very specific discussion last season I had with @Grahamburn and what he's done is made a false equivalency of what I said and is applying it to any and e everything Baker does. He knows this and is yet still pushing forward with this lie.

The conversation last year pertained to the fact that Baker at the time was hovering around .500 aa starting QB here and had been throwing an insane amount of INTs. He ended up leading the league. But basically statement was directed at that. It really isnt hard to find a QB that can go .500 and lead the league in turnovers.

So that's just my 2 cents clearing up some misinformation.

Yeah, he does that a lot. In discussions he literally quoted my post and made arguments against things I didn't even say, and saying that I did. One time in particular, he said that I made the argument that Baker was only good because of Liam Coen. I literally never even implied anything like that, let alone say that.

[Grahamburn]

I want to chime in here. Because I can see that the "any QB can do it" phrase has been falsely applied to @CannonFire when I was the one who said it. Furthermore, this was a very specific discussion last season I had with @Grahamburn and what he's done is made a false equivalency of what I said and is applying it to any and e everything Baker does. He knows this and is yet still pushing forward with this lie.

The conversation last year pertained to the fact that Baker at the time was hovering around .500 aa starting QB here and had been throwing an insane amount of INTs. He ended up leading the league. But basically statement was directed at that. It really isnt hard to find a QB that can go .500 and lead the league in turnovers.

So that's just my 2 cents clearing up some misinformation.

Eh. The phrase may be attributed to you, but the narrative is definitely him as well as he has posted multiple lists with 20+ QBs he'd take over Baker.

Doesn't really matter. It's all in good fun and definitely not a "lie," because it was said and it's pretty clear not any QB could do it (2024 INTs not withstanding and I've acknowledged that multiple times), and neither of you admit it. Which is why all of these firsts continue to be posted and the phrase is uttered. Because it's enjoyable to continue to watch Baker prove you both wrong over and over again only to watch you try to dance around it with your clearing up of misinformation.

[Grahamburn]

You may have said it first, but CF ran with it and made it his.

Yeah, that's not true either. Saying 20+ guys could do it, isn't saying "anyone". We're still talking about 20+ starting NFL QB's.

Disingenuous semantics arguments now? Got it.

[Phantom]

You may have said it first, but CF ran with it and made it his.

Yeah, that's not true either. Saying 20+ guys could do it, isn't saying "anyone". We're still talking about 20+ starting NFL QB's.

Don’t argue with stupid people.

[Grahamburn]

I want to chime in here. Because I can see that the "any QB can do it" phrase has been falsely applied to @CannonFire when I was the one who said it. Furthermore, this was a very specific discussion last season I had with @Grahamburn and what he's done is made a false equivalency of what I said and is applying it to any and e everything Baker does. He knows this and is yet still pushing forward with this lie.

The conversation last year pertained to the fact that Baker at the time was hovering around .500 aa starting QB here and had been throwing an insane amount of INTs. He ended up leading the league. But basically statement was directed at that. It really isnt hard to find a QB that can go .500 and lead the league in turnovers.

So that's just my 2 cents clearing up some misinformation.

Yeah, he does that a lot. In discussions he literally quoted my post and made arguments against things I didn't even say, and saying that I did. One time in particular, he said that I made the argument that Baker was only good because of Liam Coen. I literally never even implied anything like that, let alone say that.

When you're in discussions or having arguments you kind of have to come to certain conclusions based on what the other person's argument is. You have continuously argued that there are 25+ other QB's who could do what Baker has done here and that you do not want to pay him market value for his services because you can get the same production cheaper. Right? At least you did? Did you not? Maybe you don't now, but you certainly aren't admitting it if you've changed your mind.

If you come to the conclusion that "any QB could do it" or 25+ other QBs could do it and then run off a list of QBs who certainly AREN'T DOING IT in their current situations I draw the conclusion that you think Baker is a product of his situation. Either scheme or personnel around him. Both of those conclusions have been repeatedly nuked from orbit.

[Bootz]

I want to chime in here. Because I can see that the "any QB can do it" phrase has been falsely applied to @CannonFire when I was the one who said it. Furthermore, this was a very specific discussion last season I had with @Grahamburn and what he's done is made a false equivalency of what I said and is applying it to any and e everything Baker does. He knows this and is yet still pushing forward with this lie.

The conversation last year pertained to the fact that Baker at the time was hovering around .500 aa starting QB here and had been throwing an insane amount of INTs. He ended up leading the league. But basically statement was directed at that. It really isnt hard to find a QB that can go .500 and lead the league in turnovers.

So that's just my 2 cents clearing up some misinformation.

Eh. The phrase may be attributed to you, but the narrative is definitely him as well as he has posted multiple lists with 20+ QBs he'd take over Baker.

Doesn't really matter. It's all in good fun and definitely not a "lie," because it was said and it's pretty clear not any QB could do it (2024 INTs not withstanding and I've acknowledged that multiple times), and neither of you admit it. Which is why all of these firsts continue to be posted and the phrase is uttered. Because it's enjoyable to continue to watch Baker prove you both wrong over and over again only to watch you try to dance around it with your clearing up of misinformation.

You say its all good fun then turn around and say "its pretty clear not any QB could do it". Thats why it matters because again you're twisting the context of what the conversation was originally. A conversation you were apart of.

And he is entitled to his opinion, just like everyone else. Some here think Baker is the best QB in football. Some don't. Don't say its all fun then act as if he has to acknowledge some wrong doing for having a different POV.

[Backside]

That’s not really an answer or solution. That is not an offer that he would take.

You’re not keeping Baker because you won’t pay him what he has earned, so that is what I am asking: what do you do once you’ve run off the beloved QB with an insulting contract offer? What is your plan for the team and position at that point?

Can I go back in time and give him a deal in 2023 that I would have? Or do I have to deal with the mistakes of Jason Licht (who as I've said multiple times, had caused this situation)?

Also, why would that not be a solution? Do you know how many QB's are making $30M AAV who are over the age of 32? It's a really low number. He'd be locked in for a decade at making money that almost no one at that age is getting.

Yes, in our hypothetical scenario you are stuck with Licht’s terrible mistakes.

Based on what you’ve said in the past I’m honestly surprised that you have no ideas to offer that don’t involve some situation where Baker is making significantly less than what his play has dictated he should earn. Don’t we have that great supporting cast in place that would elevate anyone? Many of the QBs on the list you posted of guys you’d rather have would be available for much less than $30m AAV or $300m guaranteed.

[Grahamburn]

Eh. The phrase may be attributed to you, but the narrative is definitely him as well as he has posted multiple lists with 20+ QBs he'd take over Baker.

Doesn't really matter. It's all in good fun and definitely not a "lie," because it was said and it's pretty clear not any QB could do it (2024 INTs not withstanding and I've acknowledged that multiple times), and neither of you admit it. Which is why all of these firsts continue to be posted and the phrase is uttered. Because it's enjoyable to continue to watch Baker prove you both wrong over and over again only to watch you try to dance around it with your clearing up of misinformation.

You say its all good fun then turn around and say "its pretty clear not any QB could do it". Thats why it matters because again you're twisting the context of what the conversation was originally. A conversation you were apart of.

And he is entitled to his opinion, just like everyone else. Some here think Baker is the best QB in football. Some don't. Don't say its all fun then act as if he has to acknowledge some wrong doing for having a different POV.

The phrase was posted in response to a tweet with another "first QB ever to throw for 375+ yards with fewer than 5 incompletions" statistic from Baker. I didn't @ him or you or call you fucking stupid or suggest that you don't know ball or belittle your existence just because you continue to be proven wrong by the guy. Just making a point and to me it is in good fun because I'm not a miserable person.

[__Chef__]

And he is entitled to his opinion, just like everyone else. Some here think Baker is the best QB in football. Some don't. Don't say its all fun then act as if he has to acknowledge some wrong doing for having a different POV.

Of course. We all are.

However, it's important that opinions aren't set in stone and when new information presents itself, to be free to have that opinion change.

Coach Bowles for example has been a much better coach this year. With that, my opinion changed. The last game didn't help (nor the lack of addressing the LB position), but overall, he has his DBs playing more aggressively and not allowing as many easy, uncontested catches. Clock management has also improved.

Baker has not been flawless, but there's no question his play has improved, and is a KEY reason why this team is 4-1. I don't know if there's another QB in the league who is playing head ands shoulders above what Baker is bringing to the field right now, especially in crunch time.

[Phantom]

And he is entitled to his opinion, just like everyone else. Some here think Baker is the best QB in football. Some don't. Don't say its all fun then act as if he has to acknowledge some wrong doing for having a different POV.

Of course. We all are.

However, it's important that opinions aren't set in stone and when new information presents itself, to be free to have that opinion change.

Coach Bowles for example has been a much better coach this year. With that, my opinion changed. The last game didn't help (nor the lack of addressing the LB position), but overall, he has his DBs playing more aggressively and not allowing as many easy, uncontested catches. Clock management has improved.

Baker has not been flawless, but there's no question his play has improved, and is a KEY reason why this team is 4-1. I don't know if there's another QB in the league who is playing head ands shoulders above what Baker is bringing to the field right now, especially in crunch time.

This man knows football. I trust his words more than most of you all here

[Doctor]

Bootz sees the board clowning on someone else and gets envious.

[CannonFire]

Yeah, that's not true either. Saying 20+ guys could do it, isn't saying "anyone". We're still talking about 20+ starting NFL QB's.

Don’t argue with stupid people.

I don't think they're stupid, I just disagree with them.

[Pirate Life]

Since it's likely the quote under my post that started this, sorry to say it wasn't Bootz that brought it to mind at the time. It was this post from Cannonfire back in 2023:

This is like when people thought Freeman was a franchise QB after the 2010 season. Or like when people thought Winston was a franchise QB after making the pro bowl his rookie year.

People need to not be afraid to see what they see. Mayfield is a great backup, nothing more. There were 3 other teams who kicked him to the curb last year. There were another 28 teams last off season who felt he wasn't worth giving a chance to start. Yet, there's people who think that th3 team who was wrong about Freeman and then the guy who was wrong about Winston, finally got something right that everyone else had wrong?

Good thing some of you don't move to Springfield and have the last name Simpson, you'd cause mass confusion. LOL

Combine that with several other posts of CF's I quoted recently elsewhere, it was pretty clear at least in 23 going into a good portion of '24 was not saying the 20-25 QBs better/the same where his comments have now evolved to being about Mayfield's cap numbers. He was wanting any QB other than Mayfield, including Trask.

Also, highly amusing to go through the early days of the Welcome Baker Mayfield thread with the hindsight we have now.

[Primeminister]

This is amusing and good fun.

Okay so simple questions. Do you believe 20+ QBs can do what Baker has done since he arrived in Tampa?

What about doing what he is currently doing this year with the injuries on the team?

Yes

Yes

You’re close enough for “any QB could do it” to apply to you.

Okay for the sake of this discussion let’s assume Baker continues his offensive success and growth. Considering Baker has done this for 3 seasons through 3 OCs what is the cause of this offensive success if not Baker? I ask this since 20 other QBs aren’t doing this in their respective locations. Do you credit all of this to Bowles? The Tampa air?

[Grahamburn]

That’s not really an answer or solution. That is not an offer that he would take.

You’re not keeping Baker because you won’t pay him what he has earned, so that is what I am asking: what do you do once you’ve run off the beloved QB with an insulting contract offer? What is your plan for the team and position at that point?

Can I go back in time and give him a deal in 2023 that I would have? Or do I have to deal with the mistakes of Jason Licht (who as I've said multiple times, had caused this situation)?

Also, why would that not be a solution? Do you know how many QB's are making $30M AAV who are over the age of 32? It's a really low number. He'd be locked in for a decade at making money that almost no one at that age is getting.

Do you honestly believe Jason Licht made a mistake getting this guy for 4 years and what looks like will be a grand total of $108M dollars? Like, you truly believe that's a mistake?!

Your bad contract argument is so ridiculous. You can't really think this. Mayfield's contract is 19th in QB guaranteed money in the NFL. He's severely and grossly underpaid compared to his performance. It's probably one of the best if not THE best contracts in the NFL right now. Players making more than him that he is vastly outperforming this year:

Burrow
Lawrence
Tua
Purdy
Herbert
Murray
Watson
COUSINS
Geno Smith
Sam Darnold

All guys on your list as better than him by the way.

Yeah, he's going to need a new deal after this season probably. That's a good thing. The Bucs have their franchise QB.

[Grahamburn]

Yes

Yes

You’re close enough for “any QB could do it” to apply to you.

Okay for the sake of this discussion let’s assume Baker continues his offensive success and growth. Considering Baker has done this for 3 seasons through 3 OCs what is the cause of this offensive success if not Baker? I ask this since 20 other QBs aren’t doing this in their respective locations. Do you credit all of this to Bowles? The Tampa air?

It's just schtick now. There's no argument he can make.

[CannonFire]

Yes

Yes

You’re close enough for “any QB could do it” to apply to you.

Okay for the sake of this discussion let’s assume Baker continues his offensive success and growth. Considering Baker has done this for 3 seasons through 3 OCs what is the cause of this offensive success if not Baker? I ask this since 20 other QBs aren’t doing this in their respective locations. Do you credit all of this to Bowles? The Tampa air?

Then your definition of “any QB could do it” isn't the same as mine.

First off, what he did here in 2023 was nothing different than what he did in Cleveland, when he was healthy. Not sure why people make it out to be something great or special. Remember, we were 20th in the NFL in offense that year. Mayfield ranked between 15th and 18th in almost every metric.

Secondly, the OC's for almost every QB change regularly, so it's not like we're unique. Also, currwntly Mayfield is 21st in comp%, he's 21st in success rate, he's 12th in yards per attempt, he's 9th in passer rating and QBR. I mean, why is this special? He's fine. There's nothing wrong with this... I don't see the need to overblow it. I know we're Bucs fans and it's natural to be excited. It's homer-ism. I get it.

Third, I think everyone gets credit. Licht, while I think he ranks in the bottom 5 in the NFL in how to deal with (including scouting) QB's, he's pretty strong at WR's and building an offensive line. He's "ok", overall with RB's. Bowles has done well in putting this offensive talent in a position to succeed. Is he great? No, but he's fine. He brought in 1 great OC, and 1 decent one (I thought Canales was ok, wasn't upset he left), we'll see how Grizzard does. Mayfield has done really well when he's had talent around him. He was an average QB in 2023 when we had a so-so OLine. We had a great one last year, and he had a really good season.

In short, I think the sum of the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

[Pirate Life]

Then your definition of “any QB could do it” isn't the same as mine.

First off, what he did here in 2023 was nothing different than what he did in Cleveland, when he was healthy. Not sure why people make it out to be something great or special. Remember, we were 20th in the NFL in offense that year. Mayfield ranked between 15th and 18th in almost every metric.

Secondly, the OC's for almost every QB change regularly, so it's not like we're unique. Also, currwntly Mayfield is 21st in comp%, he's 21st in success rate, he's 12th in yards per attempt, he's 9th in passer rating and QBR. I mean, why is this special? He's fine. There's nothing wrong with this... I don't see the need to overblow it. I know we're Bucs fans and it's natural to be excited. It's homer-ism. I get it.

Third, I think everyone gets credit. Licht, while I think he ranks in the bottom 5 in the NFL in how to deal with (including scouting) QB's, he's pretty strong at WR's and building an offensive line. He's "ok", overall with RB's. Bowles has done well in putting this offensive talent in a position to succeed. Is he great? No, but he's fine. He brought in 1 great OC, and 1 decent one (I thought Canales was ok, wasn't upset he left), we'll see how Grizzard does. Mayfield has done really well when he's had talent around him. He was an average QB in 2023 when we had a so-so OLine. We had a great one last year, and he had a really good season.

In short, I think the sum of the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

Towards the end of the 23 season you said Mayfield was a good backup WB, nothing more and that 31 teams knew better than to sign him. That certainly sounds like ‘any other QB’ to me.

[GreatTimes]

Yeah, that's not true either. Saying 20+ guys could do it, isn't saying "anyone". We're still talking about 20+ starting NFL QB's.

Don’t argue with stupid people.

The alternative to "don't argue with stupid people" is to only argue with people who are smarter than you.

[Sooner06]

You’re close enough for “any QB could do it” to apply to you.

Okay for the sake of this discussion let’s assume Baker continues his offensive success and growth. Considering Baker has done this for 3 seasons through 3 OCs what is the cause of this offensive success if not Baker? I ask this since 20 other QBs aren’t doing this in their respective locations. Do you credit all of this to Bowles? The Tampa air?

Then your definition of “any QB could do it” isn't the same as mine.

First off, what he did here in 2023 was nothing different than what he did in Cleveland, when he was healthy. Not sure why people make it out to be something great or special. Remember, we were 20th in the NFL in offense that year. Mayfield ranked between 15th and 18th in almost every metric.

Secondly, the OC's for almost every QB change regularly, so it's not like we're unique. Also, currwntly Mayfield is 21st in comp%, he's 21st in success rate, he's 12th in yards per attempt, he's 9th in passer rating and QBR. I mean, why is this special? He's fine. There's nothing wrong with this... I don't see the need to overblow it. I know we're Bucs fans and it's natural to be excited. It's homer-ism. I get it.

Third, I think everyone gets credit. Licht, while I think he ranks in the bottom 5 in the NFL in how to deal with (including scouting) QB's, he's pretty strong at WR's and building an offensive line. He's "ok", overall with RB's. Bowles has done well in putting this offensive talent in a position to succeed. Is he great? No, but he's fine. He brought in 1 great OC, and 1 decent one (I thought Canales was ok, wasn't upset he left), we'll see how Grizzard does. Mayfield has done really well when he's had talent around him. He was an average QB in 2023 when we had a so-so OLine. We had a great one last year, and he had a really good season.

In short, I think the sum of the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

Uh, no. this entire paragraph isn't accurate, except for the cherry-picked stats.

Even a casual fan could see that there's been a significant change in the level of play between Baker's first three seasons to the last three. it's not even arguable. And pretty easy to verify; just check out of Kurt Warner's or JTS' film studies on Baker from his first three seasons to any from the last three. probably take less than an hour. Baker's evolved into a much better QB, in every performance parameter, but importantly, in those critical areas like vs. pressure success rates. Early in his career, Baker was near the bottom of the league vs. pressure, with an average success% below 50. Over the last three years, his success% under pressure has risen to over 70, putting him in the same company as QBs such as Josh Alen and Pat Mahomes.

In fact, when you compare Baker's performances vs, pressure over the last two seasons, against some of those QBs you and others kept touting as "better than Baker," such as Stroud, Love, Tua, Goff, etc., well, there's not much comparison to be had. Baker's better than all of those QBs when pressured, and has been for awhile now.

Sure, Baker's not elite, and I never said he was. All I ever said was that he was talented enough and skilled enough to produce a top-5 type of season here and there, and should be in the conversation when considering the top10 NFL QBs.

But whatever. people that enjoy sticking their heads in the sand don't make for interesting conversations. it's always the same old copy-paste 'arguments' plagiarized from reddit or wherever.

enjoy your cognitive dissonance, though. At least until you can't