Welcome Baker Mayfield

[mdb1958]

As of now!

[mdb1958]

Double post.

[mdb1958]

Every o-line player in camp needs against the other team experience. Doesnt matter how you got here, if you break bad you break bad. Heart and desire can get people talking about ya.

[mdb1958]

From what got drafted this year our IOL better had been working real hard this offseason. There sure wasnt a shortage of DL in this draft that should be wanting to get talked about.

[Grahamburn]

You keep posting this.

Bucs’ fans are high on Baker because he has been awesome here. Can you honestly say he hasn't earned high praise from Bucs’ fans for what he’s accomplished in Tampa?

It’s not like we’re propping up Daniel Jones after a 15 TD season.

We were supposed to be tanking in 2023. Baker led us to another divisional title and a playoff win.

Baker leads the NFL in TD passes since he has been a Buc.

His teammates love him. He plays hard. With passion. That’s an awesome thing to have on our team.

Cleveland would give their left nut to have him back.

We should consider ourselves lucky, and I think most smart Bucs’ fans realize it.

The problem is A. Cannon is right. And B. Other than pretty stats, what has he accomplished here?

Every argument made for Baker almost exclusively revolves around stats. That's not a great judge for QB play. Why do I care what your numbers are if you're barely winning games? 19-15 and a 1-2 playoff record is pretty average. Not terrible by any stretch, but not great.

Also, Cannon is right. Fans here do the same for other QBs. I asked someone a few weeks ago, mightve been you, if they'd take Jared Goff over Baker since Goff has been better than Baker across the board. Stats, wins, everything. They responded no, and the reason was they just had a feeling. It's hard to take that seriously when you make such definitive arguments in Bakers favor and then when the same is presented for other QBs it changes.

Baker has been good here. But some take it way out to left field. All of these graphics and such about him being better than Mahomes? I know people are only saying that because they know it'll never be proven. But come on. Keep things in perspective and there wouldn't be so much push back from logical posters.

He’s expressing opinion. There’s no right/wrong.

Other than pretty stats what has he accomplished? Ok? What else is there? He won’t win a height competition. Still haven’t heard a viable alternative on how to compare players from you…

@CannonFire keeps using Daniel Jones as the poster child for QB rehabilitation. I don’t know how “if Daniel Jones came to Tampa and threw 69 TDs in two years you’d forget all about his past” is some profound statement. Well, yeah. You’d be stupid not to because he’s obviously performing better in his new environment.

Baker has unified and galvanized the locker room. As well as the vast majority of the fan base. During a time where most fans thought we should tank. Even convinced @MJW we’re a contender with him. How’s that for an accomplishment?

He’s 1-2 in the playoffs but did play well in all three games. 8 TDs and 2 INTs. Highly rated in each. The game against Washington the highest rated QB performance ever in a loss.

As @acmillis pointed out though you’re only as good as your playoff record.

He had Mahomes on the ropes in the playoffs with Cleveland. Goalline fumble and helmet to helmet no call did him in.

Lucky for us I guess or he probably wouldn’t be here.

[Obsolete]

At some point you've got to ask yourself the question "Is this QB good enough to win a superbowl?"

If the answer is "yes" then move on to working on the rest of the team.

If the answer is "no" then keep looking for a QB who could.

Many of us feel that Baker is capable of doing that. Asking us to quantify that, we give stats, then if stats are removed from the equation then all we have is "feeling".

Nobody thats being honest will say hes on the level of the big 4(Mahomes, Allen, Jackson, and Burrow). However out of all of them Mahomes is the only 1 with rings.

It takes an entire team to win a superbowl. More often than not, the most complete team is the one who wins. Are there exceptions to the rule? Of course, but they are exceptions.

Dan Marino, one of the most talented and one of the greatest QBs to ever do it, couldnt muster a single superbowl victory and only ever got there once. He also has a losing playoff record at 8-10.

I am by no means comparing Baker to Marino, I'm just using him to illustrate that sometimes you gotta focus on putting a team around a QB because even great QB's cant win every game by themselves.

[Sooner06]

At some point you've got to ask yourself the question "Is this QB good enough to win a superbowl?"

If the answer is "yes" then move on to working on the rest of the team.

If the answer is "no" then keep looking for a QB who could.

Many of us feel that Baker is capable of doing that. Asking us to quantify that, we give stats, then if stats are removed from the equation then all we have is "feeling".

Nobody thats being honest will say hes on the level of the big 4(Mahomes, Allen, Jackson, and Burrow). However out of all of them Mahomes is the only 1 with rings.

It takes an entire team to win a superbowl. More often than not, the most complete team is the one who wins. Are there exceptions to the rule? Of course, but they are exceptions.

Dan Marino, one of the most talented and one of the greatest QBs to ever do it, couldnt muster a single superbowl victory and only ever got there once. He also has a losing playoff record at 8-10.

I am by no means comparing Baker to Marino, I'm just using him to illustrate that sometimes you gotta focus on putting a team around a QB because even great QB's cant win every game by themselves.

Good points.


I'll add a couple things. One, Baker's record in CLE vs. Burrow was 5-1. And the Browns D was never ranked higher than 22nd. Let that sink in.

Two, look at the list of QBs that either won a SB or at least played in a SB since 2000. Excluding the HoFer QBs on that list, there's Kerry Collins, Trent Dilfer, Rich Gannon, B. Johnson, D. McNabb, J Delhomme, M. Hasselbeck, R. Grossman, J. Flacco, C. Kaepernick, R. Wilson, N. Foles, J. Goff, J. Garoppolo, and Purdy. 5 of those guys actually won a SB, and a couple more nearly did.

So, the question is fairly simple. Is Baker better than any of those QBs?

And it's really not about anyone's feelings. It's about what Baker has put on tape vs. what those guys put on tape. If so, then yeah, obviously Baker has enough ability to win a SB.

Tbf, the question isn't really "can Baker play well enough to win a SB?" It's just "can TB put a good enough team around Baker to win a SB?"

[CannonFire]

But, Mayfield on a team with no receiving corp, a hobbled RB, and a crappy OLine, would do exactly what? Win 3 games?

You just described all but, maybe, about 3 QBs in NFL history.

Exactly! So tell me again why any of those guys should get $50M when you can give $15M to someone else if the talent around them is more important than they are?

[CannonFire]

At some point you've got to ask yourself the question "Is this QB good enough to win a superbowl?"

If the answer is "yes" then move on to working on the rest of the team.

If the answer is "no" then keep looking for a QB who could.

Many of us feel that Baker is capable of doing that. Asking us to quantify that, we give stats, then if stats are removed from the equation then all we have is "feeling".

Nobody thats being honest will say hes on the level of the big 4(Mahomes, Allen, Jackson, and Burrow). However out of all of them Mahomes is the only 1 with rings.

It takes an entire team to win a superbowl. More often than not, the most complete team is the one who wins. Are there exceptions to the rule? Of course, but they are exceptions.

Dan Marino, one of the most talented and one of the greatest QBs to ever do it, couldnt muster a single superbowl victory and only ever got there once. He also has a losing playoff record at 8-10.

I am by no means comparing Baker to Marino, I'm just using him to illustrate that sometimes you gotta focus on putting a team around a QB because even great QB's cant win every game by themselves.

Good points.


I'll add a couple things. One, Baker's record in CLE vs. Burrow was 5-1.

Burrow only played 3 games against Cleveland w/Mayfield. Let that sink in. LOL

[mdb1958]

It's almost certain that in two years Mayfield will be #2 behind Jameis for all time.

[Buc2]

You just described all but, maybe, about 3 QBs in NFL history.

Exactly! So tell me again why any of those guys should get $50M when you can give $15M to someone else if the talent around them is more important than they are?

You'd have to ask GMs that question. I'm just a fan.

[Doctor]

Why give $15M when you can lose just as easily giving some $5M!

[Bootz]

Good points.


I'll add a couple things. One, Baker's record in CLE vs. Burrow was 5-1.

Burrow only played 3 games against Cleveland w/Mayfield. Let that sink in. LOL

Mind you 2 of those games would've been when Burrow was a rookie on a terrible Bengals team. I believe they won 4 games that season. And yea, Baker was in Carolina in 2022 so he couldn't have played Cincinnati 6 times in 2 seasons.

[Grahamburn]

Why give $15M when you can lose just as easily giving some $5M!

Pretty much. Outside of rookie deals $15M gets you one year of Aaron Rodgers. $20M for Fields. $10M for Wilson. $14M for Jones.

How are these better options than Baker Mayfield.? Every one of those guys got dumped by the team they were on last year.

[Bootz]

Why give $15M when you can lose just as easily giving some $5M!

Pretty much. Outside of rookie deals $15M gets you one year of Aaron Rodgers. $20M for Fields. $10M for Wilson. $14M for Jones.

How are these better options than Baker Mayfield.? Every one of those guys got dumped by the team they were on last year.

They're all in the same boat it seems. Maybe 1 of them follows Bakers footsteps and eventually lands in a long term home

[Grahamburn]

Pretty much. Outside of rookie deals $15M gets you one year of Aaron Rodgers. $20M for Fields. $10M for Wilson. $14M for Jones.

How are these better options than Baker Mayfield.? Every one of those guys got dumped by the team they were on last year.

They're all in the same boat it seems. Maybe 1 of them follows Bakers footsteps and eventually lands in a long term home

Fields did get two years. We'll see how he does with the Jets. That's kind of where QB's go to die and I've always been skeptical of him anyway.

Jones has a similar opportunity to Baker and Darnold in Indy to resurrect his career.

Wilson and Rodgers seem pretty washed.

[Lordnlkon]

Why give $15M when you can lose just as easily giving some $5M!

Why give someone 5 mil when you can find someone who’d take the veteran minimum? I mean there’s got to be a QB on the couch somewhere we could sign.

[Grahamburn]

Why give $15M when you can lose just as easily giving some $5M!

Why give someone 5 mil when you can find someone who’d take the veteran minimum? I mean there’s got to be a QB on the couch somewhere we could sign.

Imagine looking Mike Evans, Tristan Wirfs, Chris Godwin, LVD, Vita Vea, and Antoine Winfield Jr. in the face and saying, "sorry, fellas I know you like him, but ... Baker sucked in Cleveland so we're not going to pay him the going rate for his play in Tampa. We're bringing in Daniel Jones instead because he's only $15M. They're basically the same guy anyway, right?"

So asinine.

[Lordnlkon]

Why give someone 5 mil when you can find someone who’d take the veteran minimum? I mean there’s got to be a QB on the couch somewhere we could sign.

Imagine looking Mike Evans, Tristan Wirfs, Chris Godwin, LVD, Vita Vea, and Antoine Winfield Jr. in the face and saying, "sorry, fellas I know you like him, but ... Baker sucked in Cleveland so we're not going to pay him the going rate for his play in Tampa. We're bringing in Daniel Jones instead because he's only $15M. They're basically the same guy anyway, right?"

So asinine.

It’s annoying having to read the constant bitching, complaining and negativity. Baker’s not perfect, he’s got his flaws. But in the grand scheme of things, he’s a good enough QB to win with and we are paying him below market value.

[CannonFire]

Exactly! So tell me again why any of those guys should get $50M when you can give $15M to someone else if the talent around them is more important than they are?

You'd have to ask GMs that question. I'm just a fan.

That's fine. That's really my only complaint about Mayfield, it's not him, it's the contract. I've never said anything about the guy, just stating some people think he's better than what he is. I think it's foolish for teams to pay guys who aren't one of (who as you even mentioned "only 3"), guys $40M, $50M, or more, per year when these types of guys are interchangeable. I think there's something to be said for continuity at the position, but I don't think that's worth and exorbitant amount of money.

[Central_Buc]

Welcome Baker Mayfield

[Grahamburn]

[Grahamburn]

"Not top 10"

[CannonFire]

Burrow only played 3 games against Cleveland w/Mayfield. Let that sink in. LOL

Mind you 2 of those games would've been when Burrow was a rookie on a terrible Bengals team. I believe they won 4 games that season. And yea, Baker was in Carolina in 2022 so he couldn't have played Cincinnati 6 times in 2 seasons.

Yeah, and the 2020 rookie season with no offseason. Who'd a thunk it that the team with the #1 pick would be a bad team.

He at least got them to the Super Bowl the following year and the AFCCG the year after that.

[Grahamburn]

Mind you 2 of those games would've been when Burrow was a rookie on a terrible Bengals team. I believe they won 4 games that season. And yea, Baker was in Carolina in 2022 so he couldn't have played Cincinnati 6 times in 2 seasons.

Yeah, and the 2020 rookie season with no offseason. Who'd a thunk it that the team with the #1 pick would be a bad team.

He at least got them to the Super Bowl the following year and the AFCCG the year after that.

Oh the irony...

[CannonFire]

Yeah, and the 2020 rookie season with no offseason. Who'd a thunk it that the team with the #1 pick would be a bad team.

He at least got them to the Super Bowl the following year and the AFCCG the year after that.

Oh the irony...

How so? I'm eager to see how you prove my point without actually grasping it, for like, the 10th time.

[Grahamburn]

Oh the irony...

How so? I'm eager to see how you prove my point without actually grasping it, for like, the 10th time.

I understand your point completely. I just don’t think you truly believe it. You’re just so dug in at this point you have no choice so you’re leaning into it in the hopes Mayfield fails so you can be “right.”

I’ll prove it.

Let me ask you a question: Do you think the Steelers, Jets, Colts, and Giants organizations would trade their QB situation for ours?

Straight up. Just the QBs and their contracts.

Follow up: Are those teams in better positions because they’re paying QBs on short term mid-level deals?

[CannonFire]

How so? I'm eager to see how you prove my point without actually grasping it, for like, the 10th time.

I understand your point completely. I just don’t think you truly believe it. You’re just so dug in at this point you have no choice so you’re leaning into it in the hopes Mayfield fails so you can be “right.”

I’ll prove it.

Let me ask you a question: Do you think the Steelers, Jets, Colts, and Giants organizations would trade their QB situation for ours?

Straight up. Just the QBs and their contracts.

Follow up: Are those teams in better positions because they’re paying QBs on short term mid-level deals?

No, you don't understand my point at all. I obviously believe what I am saying, hence why I am "so dug in", as you say it. Mayfield failing or succeeding doesn't make me right or wrong, the proof is already out there. He's a perfectly acceptable QB who's made better by the team around him... he's doesn't make the team around him better (like Joe Burrow who took two lesser teams to the AFCCG - one of those to a Super Bowl). To note, I think we go to back-to-back Super Bowls the last 2 years if we had Joe Burrow instead of Mayfield.

Not if they're smart. None of those teams have an elite WR corp, great backfield, & upper echelon offensive line.

+ The Steelers have DK Metcalf, a bunch of mooks, no RB, and a below average offensive line. How does $90M over the next 2 seasons and $30M in dead money help them?
+ The Colts have Michael Pittman Jr, who's pretty good and no one else of note. They do have a good OLine and a good RB, though often injured. Mayfield had similar in Cleveland. He was "ok". They're already "ok". How does Mayfield and his big contract help them? Why can't Daniel Jones do for them what Baker did here? What did Baker do in Cleveland that was SO much better than what Jones did in NY?
+ The Jets have a Hall and Wilson. Both are good (neither excellent), their next best player is Alan Lazzard . Their OLine is good, so they have that going for them. Go look at Mayfield's 2023 number and compare them to Rodgers' numbers last year. They're not much different, considering Mayfield was completely healthy and had better weapons. How does Mayfield help them? Their defense last year was worse than ours.
+ The Giants just spent a R1 pick on a QB, have a potential stud WR and that's it. A trash can OLine. How does Mayfield's 2-year expensive deal with $30M in dead money coming at the end of those two years, put them in a better situation?

Now, Mayfield is making $40M this year....

Rodgers is making $14M. Go cut $26M off their roster and tell me how much better they are w/Mayfield.
Richardson is making $10M & Jones is making $15M. Go cut $15M off their roster and tell me how much better they are w/Mayfield.
Wilson is making $11M & Dart $3M. Go cut $26M off their roster and tell me how much better they are w/Mayfield.
Fields is due $30M over 2 years. They can cut him after this season and have a $20M cap hit next year. Mayfield is locked in for $90M over these next 2 years and then another $30M. Cut $32M off the Jets roster this year and $30M next and tell me how much better they are w/Mayfield.

Yes, they're all substantially better off this way.
If none of those QB's pan out, every one of them (except the Jets), will have $40M, extra to build around a young QB next year. The Jets will have $20M. None of them will have to be in a situation where they're locked in for $50M next year and deal with a $30M cap hit the following year. All of them will be forced to do a deal with Mayfield after this coming season to avoid that $30M cap in 2027. That deal will include more years of him being paid $40M, $50M, or more for another 3+ years.

All of that, for a QB who's "perfectly acceptable". Hard pass. He's not a difference maker (like Joe Burrow, Mr. Irony).

[Grahamburn]

So, we're ignoring again that Baker threw 25 of his TDs last year to players that weren't Evans/Godwin? He doesn't elevate other players? Really? He's being carried by Cade Otton, rookie Jalen McMillan, Ryan Miller, and Payne Durham? That's your take?

Not if they're smart. Yeah, right. All of those organizations would bend over backwards to have Baker Mayfield instead of the sludge they're rolling out there in 2025. Their seasons are already lost.

[Sooner06]

Good points.


I'll add a couple things. One, Baker's record in CLE vs. Burrow was 5-1.

Burrow only played 3 games against Cleveland w/Mayfield. Let that sink in. LOL

Mmm, yeah, my bad. i forgot that statmuse doesn't do player/player comparos. But it will try to find something else, instead of just responding with "no search results found." Which is where I messed up.


Anyway, let's look at Baker's gamelogs vs. CIN, with and without Burrow, shall we?

First, all 8 of Baker's gamelogs vs. CIN:

https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/baker- ... ti-bengals


So, what are we looking at? Well, in his rookie year, Baker went 2-0, threw for a total of 542yds, 7 TDs/0 INTs, 73.1/73.0% completion rates, and passer Ratings of 143.9 and 121.9, respectively, albeit vs. a Burrow-less Bengals team.

in 2019, the year of Freddie Kitchens as HC/OC, Baker went 1-1, 3 TDs/5 INTs, so Baker vs. CIN without Burrow he went 3-1, 10 TDs/5 INTs.

Between the 2020-2021 seasons, Baker still went 3-0 vs. the Burrow-led Bengals, including passing for 9 more TDs and just 2 INTs. It should be noted that the single game vs. CIN in 2021 was 6 weeks after his shoulder injury and a couple weeks after he hurt his ankle. And yet he still generated a 132 Passer Rating.

So Baker went 3-0 vs. the Burrow-led Bengals (as QB1-CLE) and 3-1 vs. the Burrow-less Bengals.

he also has a career Passer Rating vs. CIN of 115.0, 1,902 passing yds, 21 TDs/7 INTs. Baker's PR for each of his 8 games vs. CIN:

2018: 143.9/121.9 (Baker's rookie year, HC/OC: Hue Jackson/Todd Haley)

2019: 38.9/79.6 (Freddie Kitchens era)

2020: 110.6/135.6 (Burrow's rookie year)

2021: 132.6 (Baker's injury year, only played CIN once in 2021)

2022: 126.0 (CAR)


So, to be accurate, Baker's overall record vs. CIN through 8 games stands at 6-2. His record vs. the Burrow-led Bengals is 3-1, the one L coming when Baker was @CAR.

[Bootz]

Are we really using career stats vs the Bengals as some time of measuring stick?

[Sooner06]

Are we really using career stats vs the Bengals as some time of measuring stick?

Not really. Just fixing a mistake i made, for the most part. I do think it's kind of interesting that Baker posted the record he did with a perennially bottom-third defense vs. CIN and more importantly played at a very high level in all but 2 of those games, in spite of the fact that he was going through HCs and OCs like they were stolen. Meanwhile, Burrow always had Zac Taylor and the DC, and in '21 (Burrow's SB appearance year) he also had both Tee Higgins and J. Chase.

It was also the year Mahomes lost to CIN twice. And could not emulate Baker's performance, in spite of having the better defense/offense/coaching and of course his health.

[CannonFire]

So, we're ignoring again that Baker threw 25 of his TDs last year to players that weren't Evans/Godwin? He doesn't elevate other players? Really? He's being carried by Cade Otton, rookie Jalen McMillan, Ryan Miller, and Payne Durham? That's your take?

Not if they're smart. Yeah, right. All of those organizations would bend over backwards to have Baker Mayfield instead of the sludge they're rolling out there in 2025. Their seasons are already lost.

If Mayfield was that good, how come he couldn't throw that many TDs any other year?

No they wouldn't.. The Giants season is over because they have a bad team as a whole. It's the same reason Mayfield missed the playoffs in Cleveland 3 times. Shocker! I know. The other 3 have a shot at the playoffs... the Jets a bit longer than the other two, but Mayfield wouldn't change that. If you think so, you're delusional

[CannonFire]

"Not top 10"

Correct

I think it's funny you're using something you don't agree with, to prove your point. You've said that you don't think Herbert is better than Mayfield, yet both of those say Herbert's better. LOL

[CannonFire]

Are we really using career stats vs the Bengals as some time of measuring stick?

Yes, he is. It was the main point of his original post, because I'm guessing he thinks Mayfield is better than Burrow. I'm not kidding, I think that dude is actually related to Baker.