Josh Grizzard Bucs OC

[13F11B]

To be fair:

Missing a LOT of pieces. Godwin is hobbled. And Baker isn’t meant to play like a top 5 QB to carry a diminished offense.

Mayfield’s performance in a three game comeback win SAVED Grizz’s ASS, otherwise he’ll be out of job .

Are you thinking the team would be better off with Liam as HC and Bowles being fired?

[__Chef__]

Mayfield’s performance in a three game comeback win SAVED Grizz’s ASS, otherwise he’ll be out of job .

Are you thinking the team would be better off with Liam as HC and Bowles being fired?

That ship has sailed. All we can hope for is Firsthalf Bowles is fired, and interim HC Secondhalf Bowles can get it right.

[Primeminister]

To be fair:

Missing a LOT of pieces. Godwin is hobbled. And Baker isn’t meant to play like a top 5 QB to carry a diminished offense.

Mayfield’s performance in a three game comeback win SAVED Grizz’s ASS, otherwise he’ll be out of job .

This is inarguably true. If we were 1-3 there would be much more discussion about the broken offense

[Primeminister]

Are you thinking the team would be better off with Liam as HC and Bowles being fired?

That ship has sailed. All we can hope for is Firsthalf Bowles is fired, and interim HC Secondhalf Bowles can get it right.

It’s really 1Q DC Bowles.

[Phantom]

Mayfield’s performance in a three game comeback win SAVED Grizz’s ASS, otherwise he’ll be out of job .

Are you thinking the team would be better off with Liam as HC and Bowles being fired?

I’m not sure how Liam would perform if he were the coach of the Bucs, but let’s look at what he did for the Jaguars this year.

[13F11B]

So, are people saying Grizzard is better than Canales?

[Phantom]

So, are people saying Grizzard is better than Canales?

lol no

[Grahamburn]

Coen had a completely healthy offensive line intact from week 3 on. Let’s not discount how huge it’s been to not have Wirfs for 3 weeks and now Goedeke and Mauch out.

[13F11B]

So, are people saying Grizzard is better than Canales?

lol no

OK. Just wanted to check.

I think Grizzard is still learning. I find it hard to judge him with all the injuries to the OL this season. I think we will know more in 4-5 weeks.

[Babeinbucland]

lol no

OK. Just wanted to check.

I think Grizzard is still learning. I find it hard to judge him with all the injuries to the OL this season. I think we will know more in 4-5 weeks.

These are my thoughts exactly. I would guess how you scheme around your A+++ starters is quite different from how you scheme around your B+ backups

[Babeinbucland]

What is it specifically you all would like to see Grizz do differently, more of or less of?

[Nobody]

Coen had a completely healthy offensive line intact from week 3 on. Let’s not discount how huge it’s been to not have Wirfs for 3 weeks and now Goedeke and Mauch out.

This is true and it isn’t a small point. And we’re also doing a fairly decent job of scheming around those significant OL injury problems so credit to Carberry and Grizzard there.

But there are plenty of key concepts changes that are flat-out making things harder for everyone on the offensive side of the ball. There was a ton baked into Coen’s offense that generated a lot of easy offensive success and a lot of snap-in, snap-out duress and catch 22s for defenses.

That these features are just not there in this offense through 4 games is a not-insignificant factor. And those can’t be the OL issues. They have to be structural changes. Because they’re the kinds of things that don’t increase cognitive load or exposure/liability for the OL. In fact, they take exposure/liability off the OL. So we must have pivoted from “Coen conceptually” toward “McDaniels conceptually.” That is what it looks like. I’m going to verify or falsify that hypothesis later this week at some point.

[Backside]

What is it specifically you all would like to see Grizz do differently, more of or less of?

More: Play action

Less: Long developing routes*


*Though I feel I see plenty of short range safety blankets on passing plays and Baker seems to have NO interest in them this year even when several times a game it looks like the very obvious right play to make. Not sure what to make of that.

[Babeinbucland]

What is it specifically you all would like to see Grizz do differently, more of or less of?

More: Play action

Less: Long developing routes*


*Though I feel I see plenty of short range safety blankets on passing plays and Baker seems to have NO interest in them this year even when several times a game it looks like the very obvious right play to make. Not sure what to make of that.

There were two of those options I saw when he threw the INT - Shepard being one of them. Had he thrown it to Shepard we likely would have gotten a DPI call I think

[Cheb]

What is it specifically you all would like to see Grizz do differently, more of or less of?

Oh dear. Don't get me started. Off the top of my head:

- Rhythm throws with simple reads, that by alignment and motion make it relatively easy for our quarterback and receivers. Rub routes, screens and meshes, rhythm throws into space (hitches or slants or whatever) when faced with off coverage.
- Designing plays to place a single defender in conflict and working that conflict, forcing him to be "wrong" consistently, condensing down the all-22 to a 6 man game.
- More halfback screens. We were one of the better screen teams in the NFL last year, it takes pressure off the line, it slows down the pass rush, it gets the ball to receivers in space.
- Flood concepts which place horizontal stress on the defense. We did this VERY well last year and went away from it for whatever reason.
- More Bucky on counters and misdirection.
- More play action, consistently, to slow down the linebackers and wrong footing them so they are slower to respond to those screens, misdirections, rhythm throws in space, and horizontal floods.

That's a start, in any case. I could go on. I also have some opinions on run schemes, but given our patchwork offensive line I am willing to let that slide.

What I am seeing from Grizzard is a lot of heroball, which is the same thing that Leftwich was so guilty of that also ground my gears at that time. In essence, the concept here is to beat your man 1-on-1. There no intelligence there, no manufactured wins, no easy throws. Can you win that way, yeah if your roster is significantly better than theirs. Will you win that consistently, no. Because heroball requires individual dominance (or luck) both within structure and outside of it, and when that dominance (or luck) is not there, everything comes crashing to flaming ruin.

It was heroball that led to Baker with those fourth quarter heroic scrambles in the first three weeks. Heroball led to the long Egbuka TD today, as well as the long Bucky TD.

Tell me, when was the last time you saw a Buc running wide open by design; for my money it was the post by Egbuka for his second TD to seal the victory in game 1, which per reporting and the players involved was in large part Egbuka calling his own TD, not Grizzard scheming him open.

Where are the clever playcalls, the easy manufactured wins? Our efficiency stats outside of turnovers are through the floor, with a 10% drop in completion percentage as well as decreases in yards per pass, yards per rush, rushing yards per game, third down conversion percentage, points per game, and basically every fucking thing you wanna look at. And don't get excited, but Baker had what, 7 or 8 passes which hit defensive backs in the hands that they dropped?

I am concerned. More than concerned, honestly. Four games is a viable sample size. The season isn't over, not by a long shot, and I wouldn't recommend firing Grizzard. But the dropoff between him and Coen is significant.

[Babeinbucland]

What is it specifically you all would like to see Grizz do differently, more of or less of?

Oh dear. Don't get me started. Off the top of my head:

- Rhythm throws with simple reads, that by alignment and motion make it relatively easy for our quarterback and receivers. Rub routes, screens and meshes, rhythm throws into space (hitches or slants or whatever) when faced with off coverage.
- Designing plays to place a single defender in conflict and working that conflict, forcing him to be "wrong" consistently, condensing down the all-22 to a 6 man game.
- More halfback screens. We were one of the better screen teams in the NFL last year, it takes pressure off the line, it slows down the pass rush, it gets the ball to receivers in space.
- Flood concepts which place horizontal stress on the defense. We did this VERY well last year and went away from it for whatever reason.
- More Bucky on counters and misdirection.
- More play action, consistently, to slow down the linebackers and wrong footing them so they are slower to respond to those screens, misdirections, rhythm throws in space, and horizontal floods.

That's a start, in any case. I could go on. I also have some opinions on run schemes, but given our patchwork offensive line I am willing to let that slide.

What I am seeing from Grizzard is a lot of heroball, which is the same thing that Leftwich was so guilty of that also ground my gears at that time. In essence, the concept here is to beat your man 1-on-1. There no intelligence there, no manufactured wins, no easy throws. Can you win that way, yeah if your roster is significantly better than theirs. Will you win that consistently, no. Because heroball requires individual dominance (or luck) both within structure and outside of it, and when that dominance (or luck) is not there, everything comes crashing to flaming ruin.

It was heroball that led to Baker with those fourth quarter heroic scrambles in the first three weeks. Heroball led to the long Egbuka TD today, as well as the long Bucky TD.

Tell me, when was the last time you saw a Buc running wide open by design; for my money it was the post by Egbuka for his second TD to seal the victory in game 1, which per reporting and the players involved was in large part Egbuka calling his own TD, not Grizzard scheming him open.

Where are the clever playcalls, the easy manufactured wins? Our efficiency stats outside of turnovers are through the floor, with a 10% drop in completion percentage as well as decreases in yards per pass, yards per rush, rushing yards per game, third down conversion percentage, points per game, and basically every fucking thing you wanna look at. And don't get excited, but Baker had what, 7 or 8 passes which hit defensive backs in the hands that they dropped?

I am concerned. More than concerned, honestly. Four games is a viable sample size. The season isn't over, not by a long shot, and I wouldn't recommend firing Grizzard. But the dropoff between him and Coen is significant.

Thank you! So one of the other intangibles we won’t know is if Grizz is self aware enough and talented enough to understand these things need to be corrected and then capable of correcting them. Is that accurate?

[13F11B]

What is it specifically you all would like to see Grizz do differently, more of or less of?

Oh dear. Don't get me started. Off the top of my head:

- Rhythm throws with simple reads, that by alignment and motion make it relatively easy for our quarterback and receivers. Rub routes, screens and meshes, rhythm throws into space (hitches or slants or whatever) when faced with off coverage.
- Designing plays to place a single defender in conflict and working that conflict, forcing him to be "wrong" consistently, condensing down the all-22 to a 6 man game.
- More halfback screens. We were one of the better screen teams in the NFL last year, it takes pressure off the line, it slows down the pass rush, it gets the ball to receivers in space.
- Flood concepts which place horizontal stress on the defense. We did this VERY well last year and went away from it for whatever reason.
- More Bucky on counters and misdirection.
- More play action, consistently, to slow down the linebackers and wrong footing them so they are slower to respond to those screens, misdirections, rhythm throws in space, and horizontal floods.

That's a start, in any case. I could go on. I also have some opinions on run schemes, but given our patchwork offensive line I am willing to let that slide.

What I am seeing from Grizzard is a lot of heroball, which is the same thing that Leftwich was so guilty of that also ground my gears at that time. In essence, the concept here is to beat your man 1-on-1. There no intelligence there, no manufactured wins, no easy throws. Can you win that way, yeah if your roster is significantly better than theirs. Will you win that consistently, no. Because heroball requires individual dominance (or luck) both within structure and outside of it, and when that dominance (or luck) is not there, everything comes crashing to flaming ruin.

It was heroball that led to Baker with those fourth quarter heroic scrambles in the first three weeks. Heroball led to the long Egbuka TD today, as well as the long Bucky TD.

Tell me, when was the last time you saw a Buc running wide open by design; for my money it was the post by Egbuka for his second TD to seal the victory in game 1, which per reporting and the players involved was in large part Egbuka calling his own TD, not Grizzard scheming him open.

Where are the clever playcalls, the easy manufactured wins? Our efficiency stats outside of turnovers are through the floor, with a 10% drop in completion percentage as well as decreases in yards per pass, yards per rush, rushing yards per game, third down conversion percentage, points per game, and basically every fucking thing you wanna look at. And don't get excited, but Baker had what, 7 or 8 passes which hit defensive backs in the hands that they dropped?

I am concerned. More than concerned, honestly. Four games is a viable sample size. The season isn't over, not by a long shot, and I wouldn't recommend firing Grizzard. But the dropoff between him and Coen is significant.

I agree with this.

I just have no clue if the issue is personnel or a complete lack of design.

[Primeminister]

What is it specifically you all would like to see Grizz do differently, more of or less of?

Oh dear. Don't get me started. Off the top of my head:

- Rhythm throws with simple reads, that by alignment and motion make it relatively easy for our quarterback and receivers. Rub routes, screens and meshes, rhythm throws into space (hitches or slants or whatever) when faced with off coverage.
- Designing plays to place a single defender in conflict and working that conflict, forcing him to be "wrong" consistently, condensing down the all-22 to a 6 man game.
- More halfback screens. We were one of the better screen teams in the NFL last year, it takes pressure off the line, it slows down the pass rush, it gets the ball to receivers in space.
- Flood concepts which place horizontal stress on the defense. We did this VERY well last year and went away from it for whatever reason.
- More Bucky on counters and misdirection.
- More play action, consistently, to slow down the linebackers and wrong footing them so they are slower to respond to those screens, misdirections, rhythm throws in space, and horizontal floods.

That's a start, in any case. I could go on. I also have some opinions on run schemes, but given our patchwork offensive line I am willing to let that slide.

What I am seeing from Grizzard is a lot of heroball, which is the same thing that Leftwich was so guilty of that also ground my gears at that time. In essence, the concept here is to beat your man 1-on-1. There no intelligence there, no manufactured wins, no easy throws. Can you win that way, yeah if your roster is significantly better than theirs. Will you win that consistently, no. Because heroball requires individual dominance (or luck) both within structure and outside of it, and when that dominance (or luck) is not there, everything comes crashing to flaming ruin.

It was heroball that led to Baker with those fourth quarter heroic scrambles in the first three weeks. Heroball led to the long Egbuka TD today, as well as the long Bucky TD.

Tell me, when was the last time you saw a Buc running wide open by design; for my money it was the post by Egbuka for his second TD to seal the victory in game 1, which per reporting and the players involved was in large part Egbuka calling his own TD, not Grizzard scheming him open.

Where are the clever playcalls, the easy manufactured wins? Our efficiency stats outside of turnovers are through the floor, with a 10% drop in completion percentage as well as decreases in yards per pass, yards per rush, rushing yards per game, third down conversion percentage, points per game, and basically every fucking thing you wanna look at. And don't get excited, but Baker had what, 7 or 8 passes which hit defensive backs in the hands that they dropped?

I am concerned. More than concerned, honestly. Four games is a viable sample size. The season isn't over, not by a long shot, and I wouldn't recommend firing Grizzard. But the dropoff between him and Coen is significant.

You and @Nobody said it far better than I can. I don’t think this is primarily personnel, but a limitation in scheme and principles.

[Obsolete]

Last year it felt like we had an answer for everything a defense was doing to us.

A lot of the time we would use their own tendencies against them. We would attack on all levels, both vertically and horizontally. This kept defenses second guessing and on their backfoot.

This year isnt anything like that. We don't try to out scheme, out smart, or out maneuver anyone. It honestly feels like it did when Leftwich was OC.

Theres no setups, theres no tendency breakers, theres not even enough play action to keep the defense honest.

This guy is supposed to be damn near a genius from what I've read but so far it hasnt come through in his playcalling.

[Cheb]

Oh dear. Don't get me started. Off the top of my head:

- Rhythm throws with simple reads, that by alignment and motion make it relatively easy for our quarterback and receivers. Rub routes, screens and meshes, rhythm throws into space (hitches or slants or whatever) when faced with off coverage.
- Designing plays to place a single defender in conflict and working that conflict, forcing him to be "wrong" consistently, condensing down the all-22 to a 6 man game.
- More halfback screens. We were one of the better screen teams in the NFL last year, it takes pressure off the line, it slows down the pass rush, it gets the ball to receivers in space.
- Flood concepts which place horizontal stress on the defense. We did this VERY well last year and went away from it for whatever reason.
- More Bucky on counters and misdirection.
- More play action, consistently, to slow down the linebackers and wrong footing them so they are slower to respond to those screens, misdirections, rhythm throws in space, and horizontal floods.

That's a start, in any case. I could go on. I also have some opinions on run schemes, but given our patchwork offensive line I am willing to let that slide.

What I am seeing from Grizzard is a lot of heroball, which is the same thing that Leftwich was so guilty of that also ground my gears at that time. In essence, the concept here is to beat your man 1-on-1. There no intelligence there, no manufactured wins, no easy throws. Can you win that way, yeah if your roster is significantly better than theirs. Will you win that consistently, no. Because heroball requires individual dominance (or luck) both within structure and outside of it, and when that dominance (or luck) is not there, everything comes crashing to flaming ruin.

It was heroball that led to Baker with those fourth quarter heroic scrambles in the first three weeks. Heroball led to the long Egbuka TD today, as well as the long Bucky TD.

Tell me, when was the last time you saw a Buc running wide open by design; for my money it was the post by Egbuka for his second TD to seal the victory in game 1, which per reporting and the players involved was in large part Egbuka calling his own TD, not Grizzard scheming him open.

Where are the clever playcalls, the easy manufactured wins? Our efficiency stats outside of turnovers are through the floor, with a 10% drop in completion percentage as well as decreases in yards per pass, yards per rush, rushing yards per game, third down conversion percentage, points per game, and basically every fucking thing you wanna look at. And don't get excited, but Baker had what, 7 or 8 passes which hit defensive backs in the hands that they dropped?

I am concerned. More than concerned, honestly. Four games is a viable sample size. The season isn't over, not by a long shot, and I wouldn't recommend firing Grizzard. But the dropoff between him and Coen is significant.

Thank you! So one of the other intangibles we won’t know is if Grizz is self aware enough and talented enough to understand these things need to be corrected and then capable of correcting them. Is that accurate?

Therein lies the rub.

[Jonny]

I have seen some say Grizz is still learning.

Of course he is. But with the defensive upgrades we have made this year, if we had last year's version of offense, we would be a true Superbowl contender. Now we yet again look like a team that could barely make the playoffs in a weak division.

We are at the risk of Baker regressing into his Cleveland playing injured self. He knows that the whole team is looking at him to make a play and get them out of bind. He is pressing too hard in an unimaginative offense requiring him to fit balls within tight windows on a regular basis.

[Grahamburn]

Coen had a completely healthy offensive line intact from week 3 on. Let’s not discount how huge it’s been to not have Wirfs for 3 weeks and now Goedeke and Mauch out.

This is true and it isn’t a small point. And we’re also doing a fairly decent job of scheming around those significant OL injury problems so credit to Carberry and Grizzard there.

But there are plenty of key concepts changes that are flat-out making things harder for everyone on the offensive side of the ball. There was a ton baked into Coen’s offense that generated a lot of easy offensive success and a lot of snap-in, snap-out duress and catch 22s for defenses.

That these features are just not there in this offense through 4 games is a not-insignificant factor. And those can’t be the OL issues. They have to be structural changes. Because they’re the kinds of things that don’t increase cognitive load or exposure/liability for the OL. In fact, they take exposure/liability off the OL. So we must have pivoted from “Coen conceptually” toward “McDaniels conceptually.” That is what it looks like. I’m going to verify or falsify that hypothesis later this week at some point.

I made a point to watch the Jags yesterday and this is true. Our offense looks very much like players have to win.

The Jags/Coen looks like scheming up players into winning situations. Lawrence’s easy roll out to a wide open TE to ice the game for example. Easy pitch/catch. Perfect play call.

Nothing looks easy for us right now.

If you listened to the guys in the off-season though they all reiterated nothing major was changing from a scheme perspective.

So, is that not true or Grizzard isn’t calling those specific types of plays for whatever reason?

I know Baker looks much less confident than he did last year. Patting the ball more. Awkward throws from the pocket. I’m trying to convince myself we’re just 4 games in and the personnel has been consistently inconsistent.

But, just eye test and it’s not nearly as smooth.

[Nobody]

This is true and it isn’t a small point. And we’re also doing a fairly decent job of scheming around those significant OL injury problems so credit to Carberry and Grizzard there.

But there are plenty of key concepts changes that are flat-out making things harder for everyone on the offensive side of the ball. There was a ton baked into Coen’s offense that generated a lot of easy offensive success and a lot of snap-in, snap-out duress and catch 22s for defenses.

That these features are just not there in this offense through 4 games is a not-insignificant factor. And those can’t be the OL issues. They have to be structural changes. Because they’re the kinds of things that don’t increase cognitive load or exposure/liability for the OL. In fact, they take exposure/liability off the OL. So we must have pivoted from “Coen conceptually” toward “McDaniels conceptually.” That is what it looks like. I’m going to verify or falsify that hypothesis later this week at some point.

I made a point to watch the Jags yesterday and this is true. Our offense looks very much like players have to win.

The Jags/Coen looks like scheming up players into winning situations. Lawrence’s easy roll out to a wide open TE to ice the game for example. Easy pitch/catch. Perfect play call.

Nothing looks easy for us right now.

If you listened to the guys in the off-season though they all reiterated nothing major was changing from a scheme perspective.

So, is that not true or Grizzard isn’t calling those specific types of plays for whatever reason?

I know Baker looks much less confident than he did last year. Patting the ball more. Awkward throws from the pocket. I’m trying to convince myself we’re just 4 games in and the personnel has been consistently inconsistent.

But, just eye test and it’s not nearly as smooth.

I did some film study on these first four games last evening to confirm or dispel my intuitions. I need to do more and find some time to make a post with my findings. I’ll try to make a post later in the week; maybe Thursday or Friday.

A few things right off the bat.

1) Coen’s offense features an elaborate Screen system based on defensive call which the QB can check to. This offense seems to have abandoned that.

A lot of easy pitch & catch, setups for later, tendency-breaking, and positive down & distance facilitator was inherent to that.

That is definitely missing. This is a sort of “modern NCAA layer” that Coen has on top of his Sean Payton-leaning version of Reid’s passing game (yes, I know Coen is a McVay disciple…but he seems to be about 40 % Payton, 30 % McVay, 30 % NCAA motion-Spread in the passing game).

2) Remember the early quick game concept to Tez yesterday? Easy pitch & catch after they used formation and motion and route to win easy leverage for an easy gain. That is a version of Payton’s stuff which he does ubiquitously (which is one of the primary reasons Brees was a 70 % passer). Coen uses these concepts all over the place. We’ve reduced them dramatically.

Cue worse success rate, increasing struggles with down & distance, and QBing plain getting more difficult and less rhythmic.

3) My intuition that we’ve gone away from Spacing concepts to a fair degree hasn’t proven exactly correct. We’ve reduced their signature in favor of more Dagger and Verts + Over concepts (think Arians), but they’re still there in fair representation. It is that the type of Spacing concepts we’re running is different. Coen’s Spacing concepts embed all kinds of things in them:

* Ubiquitous and diverse presnap motion to force adjustments/defensive tells that can harm defender leverage.

* You can still Flood with a Spacing concepts such that you can run a Cover 2 beater on one side while forcing them to defend sideline to sideline from behind LoS to Intermediate.

* Mesh and rubs via stacked release exchanges.

The Spacing concepts I’m seeing used (a) aren’t employing the above at frequency and (b) don’t seem goal-directed in their deployment. They’re just kind of…called. Coen’s Spacing concept deployment was brilliant, marrying his sequencing, his endless array of setups, and situational calls.

———

This is before getting into some key run game changes (which mostly have to do with motion, Gap frequency - which has improved from week 1 to 4, and the marriage to that Perimeter Screen game).

[mdb1958]

There seems to be a few in here that need to put the postage stamp on the letter and send it to OBP for Grizzard and Bowles.

Not joking.

[Phantom]

WTF was that? Grizz

[Selmon Rules]

WTF was that? Grizz

Hopefully, a learning experience

[__Chef__]

WTF was that? Grizz

Hopefully, a learning experience

For Grizz or OBP ... I don't care which one.